Roleplaying

[icycalm]

Continued from here: http://culture.vg/forum/topic?p=25413#p25413

So everyone voted PnP, except steven, who hasn't voted yet. I'll copy-paste their emails:

My vote is for pen and paper, sounds awesome! I've always wanted to play some proper D&D. I've played a few sessions of Black Crusade, a Warhammer 40k-based RPG, so at least I know what I'm in for.

Your post got me hyped up for some pen and paper action, I am 100% up for it!

I vote for pen and paper.

I really like the idea of playing DnD but I know it (combat at least) can get really slow with parties of four or more people. But that gets my first vote.

My second choice is being your sixth player for Icewind Dale.

Yo icy,

I'm down for pen and paper.

And here's my chat with Qpo, in which he votes:

icycalm: you
icycalm: there?
Qpo: yes
icycalm: so?
icycalm: I got 4 votes, I need yours
icycalm: well, I am going for a nap
icycalm: i would have liked an answer before so i can start planning
Qpo: haven't read the D:oS thread yet
Qpo: opened the threads I was going to read, then went afk
Qpo: and just got back
Qpo: reading it now
icycalm: k i'll wait
Qpo: 4. Switch to pen and paper
icycalm: everyone said the same
icycalm: only recoil and steven haven't voted yet
icycalm: but we still have 5 players anyway
icycalm: even if they don't want to play
Qpo: awesome
icycalm: 5 is even the sweetspot for D&D
icycalm: 4 is too few
icycalm: 6 starts getting a bit too many
Qpo: is that party size, or including the GM?
icycalm: party size
icycalm: I've done 6
icycalm: so 7 with me
icycalm: it's fine
icycalm: most adventures say "for 4 to 6 characters level 1 to 3" for example
icycalm: so you COULD have 7 level 1 characters
Qpo: so 5 people at level 2 is ideal? haha
Qpo: (j/k)
icycalm: yeah, that's what I am saying
icycalm: 5 is a sweetspot
icycalm: and we have that right now
Qpo: all European?
icycalm: recoil just voted
icycalm: guess what
Qpo: pen and paper?
icycalm: yep
Qpo: haha
icycalm: so 6 players
icycalm: i even have the adventure in mind
icycalm: do you want a link to the cover?
Qpo: <- hype MAX
Qpo: yes
Qpo: you linking those covers sealed the deal for everyone, I'm sure
icycalm: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... erdale.jpg
Qpo: sounds ominous
Qpo: I like it
icycalm: nice cover, no?
Qpo: yeah it's great
Qpo: love the autumn colors
icycalm: ok, i am making a thread in the forum and we'll continue the discussion there at leisure
icycalm: catch you later
Qpo: later

We are still waiting for steven to vote, which he can do in this thread if he wishes, but either way the launch of Cult's role-playing group is official! Check back this thread in 5 minutes because I have another post with more info coming.

[jeffrobot494]

If we are calling classes already, I would like to be a wizard or wizard equivalent.

[icycalm]

So, first things first. In RPGs, it is the DM who chooses what adventure you will play. We could discuss the setting, if you want, but not the adventure. Often I will have more than one ready anyway, just in case players fuck up on one and survive, or if they simply blow the NPCs off and go their own way.

To start with, then, because most if not all of you are new to D&D, and because the systems you are familiar with from CRPGs are 100 times less complex, I thought we could start on the Forgotten Realms setting, TSR's most "generic" setting (perhaps after Greyhawk, which was the original D&D setting), because you won't be required to read any background on it to understand it. It's just your standard medieval fantasy setting. For Ravenloft or Dark Sun -- or, worst of all, Planescape -- you'd have to read entire booklets to understand how they work, ON TOP of the D&D rulebooks you'd have to read to make your characters, so by starting in the FR we can avoid all that, so we can start playing sooner. Of course, you can read the Forgotten Realms setting booklets if you want, but it won't be necessary to start with. And if I start you off at level 1 you'll have so few abilities, and the fights will be so simple, that you will barely even have to read anything from the rulebooks, even if you play a spellcaster, since you'll barely have a couple of spells to start with anyway. What's more, the chances of dying early are far greater when you don't know how RPGs work, so the best way to start off would be with a beginners' adventure. If you cock up and die early, it's no problem -- you'll have picked up the basics and the next time we'll try something else, maybe a little more complex and epic.

In any case, however, do not expect to be "saving the world" from the very first adventure, as in the CRPGs, which have to condense an entire year's worth of playing time into something that can be beaten in a week. To get to level 10 or 15 in order to tackle the epic adventures requires MONTHS, if not YEARS here, during which time you cannot die EVEN ONCE (and good luck getting a resurrection scroll in a campaign of mine lol). Some DMs choose to generate characters for their players at level 5 or 10 right away, so they can tackle the heavy stuff immediately, but with me you are rolling a level 1 character every time you die, and taking it from there. It's the only way to really learn the advanced combat options and all the monsters anyway, without which knowledge you won't even survive a single fight at levels 10 and up.

So, my preliminary choice for a starting adventure is this:



At the top there it says "For 4-6 characters of levels 1-3", so it's perfect for us. As I said to Qpo, you could play 7 level 1 characters if steven wants to join. I've even run this before, circa 1993 or so. Can't remember what happened: either everyone died early on (because I don't remember much of it), or we had a rearrangement in the party composition and quit the FR for another setting mid-game.

So unless I find something more suitable before our first game, we are playing this.

Now, this adventure is available for download in .pdf and it even has a Wikipedia page, so please, don't destroy your fun and everyone else's by looking them up. I could hide the name of the adventure completely from you (and indeed, I will be doing this in the future, especially if you ever get to the really epic ones), but for the time being it's nice to have a cover and a title to look forward to. It's a nice substitute for the trailers and the graphics in computer games.

For the time being what I want is for everyone to go to the Fantasy Grounds site and read up on it as much as they can:

http://www.fantasygrounds.com/

Our first game will be tough to start because we'll have not only to generate 6 characters (which alone takes ages), but also to learn how that damn site works, which looks awesome but complicated. So this is the order in which we'll do things:

1. Read up on that site, and later on do a test run with a couple of players midweek

2. Read up a little bit on D&D 2nd Edition, and decide on and roll your characters, again midweek

3. Read up on the Forgotten Realms setting (optional step, for now. Only do it if you have the time and want to, but WAIT until I tell you exactly what to read)

4. Play our first session

So let's take these one by one, and let's stay on the same page. Don't go googling Forgotten Realms or something: just use the links I give you.

[icycalm]

So here's the two things I want you to do as soon as you can:

1. Read as much as you can from here: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/

2. Decide your party composition between you by posting in this thread. The choices are as follows (note that the capitalized terms are generalized groups; you cannot choose a group only: you have to specify a class).

WARRIOR
Fighter
Ranger
Paladin

WIZARD
Mage
Specialist Wizard

PRIEST
Cleric
Druid
Priest of Specific Mythos (depending on the setting; in this case, Priest of a Forgotten Realms god, for which you'll have to read the setting)

ROGUE
Thief
Bard

If you require more information before you make your choice, read the "2nd Edition" part of this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#2nd_edition

I am downloading a torrent with the core rulebooks right now, and will email the Player's Handbook to everyone once I have it.

[icycalm]

In this quote from the Dungeon Master's guide you can see the beauty of this system:

What is a Viking but a fighter with a certain outlook on life and warfare? A witch is really nothing but a female wizard. A vampire hunter is only a title assumed by a character of any class who is dedicated to the destruction and elimination of those loathsome creatures. The same is true of assassins. Killing for profit requires no special powers, only a specific reprehensible outlook. Choosing the title does not imply any special powers or abilities. The character just uses his current skills to fulfill a specific, personal set of goals.

—Dungeon Master's Guide, 2nd edition

This is what all non-D&D-licensed CRPGs get wrong, and this is one of the (many) reasons their combat systems suck, as I will be explaining in my Pool of Radiance Videogame Art review at some point. "Assassin" and "Vampire Hunter" and 99% of the classes seen in CRPGs are not classes, they are merely specializations of the thief or fighter classes or whatever.

Which brings us to kits. Character kits were introduced in the second edition, and they are a series of rulebooks (one for every class), that offer an insane depth of specialization and customization. Consider that the Player's Handbook is a book that explains the rules on ALL the classes, but the Fighter's Handbook is an entire book on a SINGLE class. The Ranger's Handbook is another. And so on and so forth.







It even got to the point where there were handbooks about specializations contained in handbooks, like this lol:



Or handbooks about classes that were only available for specific settings, e.g. the Gladiator on Dark Sun:



Not to mention an entire new group of classes added afterwards: Psionics (which was integrated fully into Dark Sun to the point where all characters there have psionic abilities by default):



To give you an example, here is a list of the kits available to a Paladin, if we decide to use the Paladin's Handbook:

Chevalier, Divinate, Envoy, Equerry, Errant, Expatriate, Ghosthunter, Inquisitor, Medician, Militarist, Skyrider, Squire, Votary

Wizard kits:

Academician, Amazon Sorceress, Anagakok, Militant Wizard, Mystic, Patrician, Peasant Wizard, Savage Wizard, Witch, Wu Jen

Bards:

Blade, Charlatan, Gypsy-bard, Herald, Jester, Jongleur, Loremaster, Meistersinger, Riddlemaster, Skald, Thespian

And if you want to go nuts you can see all of them here (which include specialty classes unlocked via specific settings, etc.):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_al ... ition_kits

But I don't think any of you are ready for all this shit, not to mention that I would go crazy trying to help you build 6 or 7 characters to that depth, not to mention that you could die within an hour of starting the game and we could lose a week's worth of effort in a flash. So we can start with regular, basic characters, and if they survive a couple levels at least, we could add the kits (and the associated backstories). The only problem with this solution is that the kits have requirements (e.g. to be a Paladin/Cavalier you might need more Strength than normal, etc. -- and note that in D&D the basic stats NEVER increase, except perhaps by magic, which is EXTREMELY rare, and in any case useless here because the kits would be added RETROACTIVELY; i.e. we will pretend that your character has ALWAYS had the kit you'll choose, and build his backstory accordingly -- we are just not going to do it from the very first session because it is too much work).

So, if you want to be 100% sure that you will be able to choose your preferred kit somewhere down the line, if your starting character survives, you should torrent your preferred class's handbook before we start rolling stats, to make sure that the stats you'll get are sufficient for the kit you want. If, on the other hand, you don't care too much, we'll just roll a basic character and IF you choose to pick a kit later on, you will choose from the ones that your stats allow you to.

So we have jeff down as a wizard. Let's see some more choices.

[icycalm]

Okay, found the Player's Handbook.

Get this torrent: https://kickass.so/ad-d-2nd-edition-cor ... 31943.html

Then open the Player's Handbook (ignore all other books).

You can read as much of it as you want, but to start rolling characters you only need to read Chapters 1-3 (and you can skip Chapter 2 if you plan to make a Human character). When someone has decided on class and race, we can try going to the Fantasy Grounds site and rolling his character whenever we are both online. Let's try to roll all characters this week then. Post here if you have any questions, etc. I'll do my best to help you out.

[Some guy]

I'd also like to be a wizard but if everyone wants a balanced party I'll be a priest.

[icycalm]

And because you guys know fuck-all about D&D, I'll give you some pointers on party composition.

Warriors are strong early on, and Wizards are strong at higher levels (so if you don't have Warriors in your party the Wizards will never make it to a higher level anyway). Priests can be good Warrior substitutes if you build them right, and at least one is indispensable in any party. Two would mean you can fuck up a lot and still survive, or you could have one Priest and one Paladin, since the Paladin also has limited healing abilities (though he has very high stat requirements and is hard to role-play without becoming disgraced and losing them). Rogues would be the last class to include in a typical 4- or even 5-man party, but in a 6-man party a good Rogue will save your life, and even the entire party, many times. This isn't a CRPG in which you can save-load and avoid all traps. Traps kill here, and stealth can save your party entire confrontations, so it would be a great asset to have.

When I make 6-man parties in stuff like Pool of Radiance and Baldur's Gate I usually go for 2 Warriors, 2 Wizards, a Priest and Rogue, but other possibilities are workable, especially if you include kits (which as I said we won't to start with).

It is possible to min/max a Ranger to the point where he will almost count for 2 Fighters, and I will explain all this stuff to people when they have posted some preferences and we begin discussing them in more detail.

[Some guy]

I'm also really looking forward to this. I have some experience with tabletop RPGs but that was about four to five years ago at university and I only played for about six months. Thanks for setting this up icy!

[icycalm]

Let me explain a little what I mean by "still survive" here:

Priests can be good Warrior substitutes if you build them right, and at least one is indispensable in any party. Two would mean you can fuck up a lot and still survive, or you could have one Priest and one Paladin, since the Paladin also has limited healing abilities

If even a SINGLE character survives a battle, the game CONTINUES here. It's not like CRPGs. So characters dying is not at all uncommon. It would indeed be extremely surprising if you managed to finish an adventure without anyone dying (and having to roll a new, level 1 character). But more healing power can help mitigate this. Healing potions and scrolls do not grow on trees here, and the "cooldown" on a healing spell is usually AN ENTIRE DAY. And you even have to SLEEP FOR 8 HOURS in order to regain your spell. So if you are in the middle of a dungeon, you can usually forget it.

There are no "quick-travel" portals.

There is no shop conveniently placed next to each combat area, or spaced regularly between them.

There are encumbrance rules. You cannot carry an infinite amount of barrels as in D:OS. If you are in the middle of a forest and want to sell something, it could take entire days of real play-time until you get to a shop, and you have to walk or ride all the way there.

It all works like you would expect a fantasy novel or movie to work.

[Qpo]

I'm excited to the point of freaking out. I almost need a good hard slap.

I want to play as Warrior/Cleric or Warrior/Thief.

[Steven Berg]

I'd love to play some D&D. I'd like to play a fighter or a ranger.

[recoil]

I'm liking the sound of the rogue and warrior classes, so here's my top four choices:

1. Thief
2. Bard
3. Fighter
4. Paladin

Looking forward to adventuring with all of you.

[Qpo]

I can also go full Cleric.

[icycalm]

Ok, 7-man party it is. Though I doubt we'll be able to assemble the entire party for every game, but I am used to dealing with this sort of thing. We'll work it out into the plot somehow.

I want to play as Warrior/Cleric or Warrior/Thief.

First off, there is no Warrior/Cleric or Warrior/Thief. Warrior is a group of classes, not a class.

Now, you can multi-class, if you really want to, but it's more complicated, and for a 6- let alone a 7-man party it's pointless from a tactical perspective. Multi-classing is usually useful in small parties, where you might want to have access to more classes than the number of players allows.

Why don't you make a Cleric with a lot of Strength? Clerics can wear all armor iirc and use most weapons and are already good fighters.

Or you could make a Thief with a lot of Strength and weapon proficiencies instead.

If you do a Fighter/Thief you'll be a mediocre fighter and a bad thief. Same with Fighter/Cleric. And levelling takes ages, because XP is divided between the classes.

Read up on the classes and multi-classing in the Player's Handbook, and let me know what you think.

Check also the Fighter's, Paladin's, Cleric's and Thief's handbooks for kits that might accomplish the sort of thing you want to do. No need to read any of them in-depth: just scan the available kits and read the first paragraph of their descriptions. I am looking for a torrent for all of them right now.

[icycalm]

A provisional list:

jeff and Rory: Wizards

recoil: Thief

Qpo: Cleric

You are just missing Warriors now.

Don't be afraid of going for 3 Wizards or 2 Thieves, or whatever else you might want. You have the bases covered already, so the other players can do whatever the hell they want if you can get at least 1 tank between you. Or you can try to cover for the lack of a tank by the fact that this is an unusually large team.

[Hanged Man]

I'd like to play as a Druid.

[icycalm]

Let me try to explain how hit points work here, because it's very different to CRPGs.

You heal 1 HP for every 8 hours' sleep. If you stay in bed all day you get back 3 HP (which is called "bed rest"). So if your character is level 3 and has say 20 HP, and you lose 19 in a battle, he will need to wait 19 fucking days to get them back without a Priest, or stay in bed for almost a week, by which point the adventure you are playing may very well be over, because this isn't a CRPG in which you can sleep for a month and all the NPCs will wait for you at their appointed spot to tell you the things they have been programmed to tell you.

So a Priest can speed this process up, and he's the only thing that can do that since potions and scrolls are extremely rare and extremely expensive, and you'll need to treat them with even MORE consideration than I do when playing CRPGs.

And even with a Priest, he will have only a SINGLE Cure Light Wounds spell memorized per day at level 1, so he will be able to fully cure at MOST one character after a battle (and even then only if the character hasn't lost too many HP, and the Priest rolls a high enough number on the spell effect). So what will the rest do?

So a full Priest is almost a requirement if you want a lot of characters to survive, and in such a large party 2 wouldn't be a bad idea. Or a Priest and a Paladin at least.

[icycalm]

So in essence, if you are playing a party with little healing power, you are betting that your extra tanks or spellcasters will clear out the enemies before you take a lot of damage. Which is not a realistic bet for a group of people who don't know how the combat system works, and who don't have a huge "metagaming" knowledge of all the AD&D monsters ("metagaming" in this sense is unavoidable in AD&D; there's nothing we can do about it. If you know the abilities of a Beholder, you know them, and you cannot avoid playing in a way that takes that into account, even if the character you happen to be playing has never encountered or even heard of that monster before; we'll just have to work out into his backstory a justification for why he knows what the player does).

[icycalm]

Updated list:

Wizards: jeff and Rory
Priests: Qpo (Cleric) and Sergey (Druid)
Rogues: recoil (Thief)

[jeffrobot494]

I found some 2e books available for download.

http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/gaming ... sion/AD&D/

It has The Complete Fighter's Handbook and The Complete Wizard's Handbook, as well as some more niche ones.

Edit: No pictures though.

[Steven Berg]

I'll go ahead and do a ranger.

[icycalm]

Warriors: steven (Ranger)
Wizards: jeff and Rory
Priests: Qpo (Cleric) and Sergey (Druid)
Rogues: recoil (Thief)

Found some more adventures I was not aware of. A trilogy that starts with this:



And it takes place around Daggerdale, same area as the other adventure (even features at least one of the same characters as far as I can see). Might see if I can link them up. Or you could choose in-game between them by your actions.

And the sequels:





Notice that this is a trilogy where all the chapters say "levels 1 to 4". In real D&D you progress extremely slowly, and every level gained feels like a major accomplishment.

[icycalm]

And one day maybe...

[icycalm]

Tomorrow I'll make a role-playing forum, and every player will get his thread to make his character. We'll have a thread about rules, another about the setting, and so on. For the time being, read as much of the Player's Handbook as you can, and try to nail down race, class and alignment for your characters, as much as possible. If you have extra time, look for your chosen class's handbook, and try to choose a kit too.