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Cosmic War

Insomnia Balance

Moderator: JC Denton

Unread postby Furballman » 22 Sep 2017 22:00

Our suggestion is that halleyable planets don't completely annihilate the planet but do damage to a certain area (up until a certain radius, where it would then annihilate the entire planet), like the old days. Also, an Annihilaser loading/cooldown time? A bit like the Ragnarok.
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Unread postby JC Denton » 22 Sep 2017 22:32

Hello, forum admin here.

Someone tried to post with the username "fieryrage". I didn't even read what he posted, and just deleted the post.

This isn't the Uber forum. Unless you are 100% respectful, your post will not appear here.

Carry on.
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Unread postby icycalm » 22 Sep 2017 22:37

Furballman wrote:Our suggestion is that halleyable planets don't completely annihilate the planet but do damage to a certain area (up until a certain radius, where it would then annihilate the entire planet), like the old days.


I also want this, but it's outside Robo's skillset. I think the only person who can do this is mikey. The good news is that he wants to do it, and he is planning to. It will just take him a long time. Here is his thread on the subject: https://forums.uberent.com/threads/my-w ... hes.69148/

All his suggestions sound amazing.

Furballman wrote:Also, an Annihilaser loading/cooldown time? A bit like the Ragnarok.


I also want to do this. You can see me talk about it here back in August: http://culture.vg/forum/topic?p=29421#p29421

Robo will look into it as soon as he can. Hopefully it's doable.
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Unread postby Furballman » 22 Sep 2017 22:47

Also, regarding the double-cost of the T2 factory, we feel that this would only encourage T1 spam, which, as we've seen in Clan Wars, hasn't done any wonders regarding sim speed, that's why I think it's maybe not such a good idea, but we could always test it!
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Unread postby icycalm » 22 Sep 2017 23:04

There's something I wanted to say regarding your reasoning.

There are many changes we could make to improve the sim speed for Clan Wars. For example, we could try to implement unit caps. Or remove wreckage. Or remove area commands. Someone on the Uber forum even said to not use Legion, or add any new units at all, because they decrease sim speed.

In my view, we have to distinguish between two separate goals:

1. Improving the game

and,

2. Improving the sim speed

The second goal is the easiest, because it doesn't require any work from us apart from renting the fastest server at any given time. All we have to do is wait for Intel and AMD to release faster processors, which will happen eventually.

The first goal, however, will NOT happen without us (or mikey, or other modders). Intel and AMD will NEVER improve the game's mechanics. Even Uber does not seem like they will do it at this point. Either WE will do it, or it won't happen.

So I don't think that sim speed is a good argument for not improving the game. If Legion units slow down the game, so be it. It will be slower for a few months, then when the new processors are released it will speed up again. And so it is with all the other additions/changes that complexify the game, and thus slow it down.

Improving the game means making it more complex, and making it more complex means slowing the sim down. It is a symptom of progress and there's nothing we can do about it. So there's no point worrying about it.
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Unread postby Robomoo » 22 Sep 2017 23:15

So, for increasing the cost of T2 factories, we have:

Elite: increase it by 2x
Diskraip: increase it by 1.75x at first
Furballman: let's test it
icycalm: let's test it

So next week I will increase the cost by 1.75x, and we will start testing it.

I am working on getting the nukes to target orbit again. I will update with my results soon.
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Unread postby icycalm » 22 Sep 2017 23:24

This might also be a good idea:

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/kaij ... mod.72597/

eyhey34 wrote:This mods allows Kaiju to use teleporters, making water planets a valuable strategic asset in multi-planets systems.


But in that case I think Drifters should teleport too.
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Unread postby Robomoo » 25 Sep 2017 22:18

The mod has now been updated with the factory cost change.

20170925220758_1.jpg

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20170925220131_1.jpg


All T2 factories have had their metal cost increased by 75%. This gives the following values:

Orbital Factory: 5400 -> 9450
All other factories: 4800 -> 8400
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Sep 2017 01:41

We are working to get the mod on CMM. This is what the lobby will look like:

Screenshot (135).png
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Unread postby Elite Sardaukar » 26 Sep 2017 05:55

It would seem you have used the vanilla costs, the cost increases should be as follows:

T2 Factories - 3600 >>> 6300 (175%)

The Orbital Launcher is not a tier 2 factory (technically tier 1.5). If it is to have an increase I would still recommend 175%.

Orbital Launcher - 2000 >>> 3500 (175%)
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Sep 2017 10:24

We did not change the cost of the Orbital Launcher. We changed the cost of the Orbital Factory. Take a look at Robo's first screenshot.

As for the rest, I don't know how Robo could make such a basic mistake. Didn't you check the values you were changing man?
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Unread postby Robomoo » 26 Sep 2017 12:45

My bad guys. In the game's files there is a 'pa' folder for Classic versions of units, and a 'pa_ex1' folder for Titans versions. I just assumed there was no difference between them and copied the Classic versions of the factories into the mod.
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Unread postby Robomoo » 26 Sep 2017 16:37

Newly adjusted factory build costs, and a nicer blue Tyr icon:

20170926161803_1.jpg

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20170926161832_1.jpg

20170926161839_1.jpg

20170926161845_1.jpg


The metal costs of all T2 factories (Orbital factory included, since it has the same cost as the others in Titans) have now been changed from 3600 to 6300.
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Unread postby Robomoo » 28 Sep 2017 11:57

Insomnia Balance is now up on CMM:

insomnia-balance-on-cmm.png


The client mod is only needed for custom servers, but we have made both of them dependencies of each other, so you cannot enable or disable one without doing the same also to the other.

The changes have been stated above, but when in doubt just look at the sidebar in the lobby and you'll get the latest changelist.

This is the balance that will be played on Saturday, and it includes the T2 factory cost increase, so give it a test to be ready, and make sure everyone in your clan knows the changes because they will not appear in the white event lobbies (there's simply no space for them there, since the sidebar is taken up by the leaderboard, and would look lame if we tried to cram even more text there).

Note that we made the thread on the Uber forum only because it is a requirement to get on CMM. Any issues that you have, report them here.
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Unread postby Diskraip » 08 Oct 2017 15:29

Hi, I suggest increase max speed for Angels from 30 to 50.

Also, increase max speed for Icarus from 30 to 50, and increase it HP from 40 to 60.
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Unread postby icycalm » 08 Oct 2017 16:13

Can you post a brief explanation for why you want these changes? Even one sentence per change will do. It will help everyone else understand what you are trying to achieve with them.
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Unread postby Diskraip » 08 Oct 2017 16:31

Most players don't use Angels because they so slow. If you use it with other air, you lose many mobility. If Angels will have 50 max speed, they stop be useless, but you continue pay some cost of mobility, because Pheonix have 60 max speed and if you use they with Angels, air group will have 50 speed. This also applies to Icarus. And I suggest increase they HP because will more difficult to protect your fabs with use Dox.
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Unread postby icycalm » 08 Oct 2017 17:48

It sounds reasonable to me. We will wait a few days to see if anyone has any objections, and if not we will proceed with the changes.
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Unread postby icycalm » 08 Oct 2017 18:10

Something else I wanted to talk about. I recently had an extended conversation with Nosebreaker, in which he explained to me why he doesn't like mods in general, and balance mods in particular. From what I understand, it is because they "fracture the playerbase". Nevertheless, he told me that he suggested the T2 factory change to Elite, because he preferred how T2 worked in Classic. So, since he sees that we are determined to rebalance the game, he decided to help, which I think is a great attitude to have.

However, I want to defend the decision to rebalance/mod the game, even against the criticism that it fractures the playerbase. And I will use the example of the Tyr. The Tyr is not even a balance change, really, but a brand-new unit created by the Legion team, that would not exist at all without them in any form. And yet we see how much people are using it in our events, and how much new action and new fun it brings to the game. Seeing a few Tyrs LASER an entire planet down is a whole new level of epic, quite different from BLOWING an entire planet up with the annihilazer. It makes the game richer and more complex and more interesting, and that's just ONE new unit!

So, we are people who have been playing the game for hundreds if not thousands of hours, and want to keep playing it for hundreds and thousands of hours more. But we can't be expected to not get bored at some point with the base game and units and mechanics that Uber gave to us two years ago with Titans. New units and improved balance that complexifies the game are NECESSARY, I believe, in order to maintain our interest in the long run. Nosebreaker worries that I will get burned out and bored and stop holding these events, and I want to tell him that the best way to ensure that this doesn't happen is to keep making the game more complex, both in terms of balance of the existing units, and in terms of adding in more units. As long as every few weeks we have a new unit to play with, I don't see how we could ever get bored.

My long-term goal is a super-complex 4-tech-tier version of the game that's so deep, with so many specialized units, that you will NEED a 10-player team to properly control all of them in the battlefield, so that by the time we are playing 10v10 4-tech-tier games in the League, only the CLANS will be able to play this game properly, and the only thing left for independent 1v1 players to do is watch us do it on Twitch.

I know that my dream may not be shared by all the clan leaders... but I hope that it will be, if not right now, then perhaps later. I am posting all this now in order to be honest with you guys in what direction I want the balance mod to take. I don't want to try and deceive you, by adding one unit per month or something, until we have a 4-tech-tier game without you realizing what I am doing. I know you will realize what I am doing, if you haven't done so already, so I think it's best to state it right now so we are on the same page.

I am not saying I want a 4-tech-tier game tomorrow, or even next week, or even next month. But perhaps in one year? Or two?

I know it is an extremely difficult balancing job, but we have the best teams and players in the game at our disposal, and we have months and YEARS ahead of us, so we are perfectly capable of doing it. If you want these events to survive for a LONG time, we need a LONG-TERM project to go along with them, and I think that turning PA into a 4-tech-tier game is the perfect project to keep the organizers and the participants and the modders and the viewers coming back week after week, to see what crazy new changes we've made to the game.

Let me know what you guys think about the above when you have some time.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Oct 2017 14:41

I just voice-chatted with Nosebreaker regarding Diskraip's proposed changes, and I am going to try to relate what he told me.

He thinks that increasing the speed of the Angel will reduce tactical complexity, because then every air group will be able to carry Angels with it. He agrees that no one uses Angels, but he thinks a better way to make them more useful is to decrease their cost, because currently it's better to just make a bunch of fighters than Angels. But if we decrease the cost, then Angels will be more viable. You keep them in your base, over your anti-air, and after your air group has fought a battle you return it to the base to be healed, which takes extra micro. Otherwise, if you increase the Angels' speed, it is true that you will see people build more Angels, but the micro gets dumbed down. This might be good for 1v1s, but in the big team games we are playing you can afford to have a player focus entirely on air, and then it will be good for him to have extra things to micro.

So Nosebreaker's suggestion for the Angels is: decrease their cost until they get used more, and so you make the unit useful without decreasing tactical complexity of the air layer.

Nevertheless, he said he is fine with increasing the speed as a test. However, in that case we should also change the attack priorities of the fighters, to target Angels before fighters.

Also, and this is my opinion, on an aesthetic level, it doesn't make sense for a support unit to be almost as fast as a fighter. The Angel doesn't even have an aerodynamic shape.

We did not discuss the Icarus much, but he thinks the same argument applies to it, as far as speed goes. He doesn't have a problem with the HP increase though.

Think about all this Diskraip, and tell me what you want to do.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Oct 2017 14:49

Another thing we talked about with Nosebreaker are the Tyrs. He thinks they are OP. My solution is to add the Legion orbital factory and fabber, as T3 units, so that the T2 orbital fabber will have to build these first before a player can build a Tyr. Nosebreaker agrees with this. He also agrees with the idea of slowly adding one or two units to the game every month, and seeing where that will take us.
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Unread postby Diskraip » 10 Oct 2017 15:42

Whan I suggest Icarus changes, I want get something like this https://palobby.com/units/unit/l_raider ... ion-server
Icarus useless and it need to more changes. So, if you think that increase speed not good idea, maybe better we remove it and add Marauder from Legion?
About Angels, decrease cost maybe will be better than increase speed, so I agree.
And I think it really good idea to add T2 orbital fab, which will build Tyr.
Regarding adding new units, I want it too, but we must add only special units, which will give to game new opportunities. Don't add Bots or Vehicles if something like this already exist.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Oct 2017 15:51

Yeah, when we add new units, we will either pick units that have new abilities/roles, or we will give them new abilities/roles.

Legion gives us 100 new models to pick from. It is our job to make sure that these new models come with abilities that make the game deeper.

For example, the next unit we would like to add is the Rampart. It gives a shield that is entirely new to the game.

Back to the Icarus. I don't want to replace it with the Marauder, because I don't want to replace any units. We must make the Icarus useful. So will do the following:

1. Decrease the Angel's cost (not sure by how much, perhaps by half)
2. Change the Icarus's speed and HP as Diskraip suggested, as a test
3. Add the Legion orbital factory and orbital fab, and make both of them, plus the Tyr, T3 units

We will try to have all these changes ready soon, so we can test the mod before Saturday.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 Oct 2017 08:02

I thought some more about the Icarus.

The problem with the Icarus is that it was a stupid idea to begin with. Uber made an air unit with solar panels on it that generate energy, similar to the solar panels they made for the orbital layer, but who wants to put his energy in the air where it can be shot easily? Even worse, who wants to go raiding with his energy-producing units?

So I don't think that we should try to turn the Icarus into a raiding unit. If you want air raid units, Diskraip, we should add the Marauder as you suggested.

Besides, the Icarus doesn't even look like a raiding unit. It looks like movable solar panels. So when we buff it, we should buff the purpose it was designed for. So I suggest we simply increase its energy production by 2x or 3x or 4x, until the unit becomes useful and people start making it and trying to guard it in the middle of their bases with anti-air.

Let me know what you think, Diskraip, and also what you think about adding the Marauder. Note that if we add the Marauder, we will have to add the factory that makes it too, just like with the Tyr. We can do this now, or we can wait a few weeks to do it. I will leave the decision to you.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 Oct 2017 08:07

Diskraip wrote:I heard that when sim speed is low, shot from metal planet usually is the cause of server crash, but I'm not confident. So i think we need test it, and if it true, must remove metal planet or Catalyst
Or think of how to fix the problem


It will be difficult to test, but we will put it on our list. If anyone does a test, tell us your results here. It might also be good to try and live stream/record the test.
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