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PC Fragile Existence

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PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 10 Nov 2021 05:41

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https://www.fragilecontinuum.com

Dyson Sphere Project was made by five people. This is made by one.

Didn't I tell you that it'll get easier and easier to make PA2? This guy is almost doing it. None of that Chinese peaceful grinding faggotry: this game is all about war, and has absolutely everything you'd want of PA2... except multiplayer. It's basically PA + Homeworld, real-time with pause.

He's trying to make a campaign, but with his nonexistent budget that's a mistake; campaigns require big budgets. He should be going full-on MP.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1672 ... Existence/

Fragile Continuum wrote:Take command of the last surviving fleet of humankind in Fragile Existence, a sci-fi RTS with fully 3D planet surfaces and vast solar systems to explore. Dispatch expeditions to find resources, build settlements, construct vital parts and supplies, and evolve your technology to meet new threats.


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The artstyle isn't bad, but it's nowhere near as good as PA's. It's utilitarian, but it has its moments, as in this pic: https://twitter.com/fragileexistenz/sta ... 0263349250

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Reveal Trailer | Space RTS/4X/Fleet management
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL65jam_7Z8

Late 2022.
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Re: PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 10 Nov 2021 05:50

How awesome would it be if we modded all of PA's units into this?

It should be possible, since he's releasing extensive modding tools!

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1672320/ ... 828471513/

Fragile Continuum wrote:Q. Will this game be moddable?
The game already features a planet generation editor, which couples procedural generation options with hand-crafted placement of features onto the planet surface. It also allows for solar systems to be crafted in a similar fashion, placing planetary bodies and the parent star, as well as sketching out movement lanes between worlds. These tools will continue to be fleshed out as development continues.
A node-based scripting system is on the list of features to be added, which couples a user-friendly Unreal Blueprint-style interface to the programmatic execution of events and sequences during gameplay. This is a subset of the tools that will be used to create the campaign structure and story-based interactions.
Allowing for the import of custom unit models and data values is something that may be worked on post-release, but is not a current focus.


Add Legion too, and make some vids and give mikey a heart attack!

He is considering adding MP, so at that point we just start Clan Wars on it:

Fragile Continuum wrote:Q. Single or multi player? Skirmish or campaign??
Single player gameplay has been the main focus thus far, but we don't rule out the inclusion of some form of multi-player gameplay at a later point, be it in a skirmish or cooperative play format (with players taking control of different sections of the fleet, for example). Skirmish-based single player games take on a rogue-like essence, with the fleet warping between randomly-generated or hand-crafted solar systems, trying to stay alive as long as possible. A single player campaign is a key design goal, focusing on clusters of scattered fleets after the destruction of Earth, as these remnants learn to put aside previous differences and work together to keep the human race alive.


Fingers crossed, a couple of years from now we could restart Clan Wars on a much larger scale in a game in which the developer will probably even support us.
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Re: PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 10 Nov 2021 06:36

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1672320/ ... 934275102/

icycalm wrote:cosmicwar.net Clan Wars on Fragile Existence and some tips on game design

Hello, I used to run Clan Wars on Planetary Annihilation for years. We ran up to 30-player, 10-planet, 3-hour wars on a weekly basis at http://cosmicwar.net

We'd love to resurrect our events in your game, if you would be so kind as to put multiplayer in it. It is my humble opinion that a campaign is the wrong choice for a single developer with a tiny budget; campaigns require big budgets. And even if you manage a decent campaign, it doesn't foster a community because campaign players finish the game once and don't touch it again. If you focus instead on multiplayer, you can gain a community that will stay around for as long as you keep updating the game, and as long as it stays on the cutting-edge.

Right now, you are on the cutting edge because Dyson Sphere Program dropped the ball on war and multiplayer. They are now saying they will add war, but I am not holding my breath. It will probably be some lame SimCity-style monsters, and no MP. Maybe in a decade they will have 20 units in and some lame 1v1 MP.

So you are the only hope of the RTS community for a true successor to PA. You've already got the toughest part down: space battles. That's what was missing from PA, and this aspect seems amazing in your game. Several other aspects however are inferior or could use more work:

1. Above all MP. That's the number 1 thing you can do to improve your design and game right away. Anything else you are working on is of negligible importance compared to this. You need to drop all other work and get this running asap. And make sure the MP is as scalable as possible, as with PA. No one wants to play 1v1. People want to play massive star-spanning wars with dozens of players, or as close to it as you can manage.

2. A big deficiency of PA that I can see you are repeating is bland/inferior planetary surface features. We need mountains that the units can climb and fortify, not a triangle model placed down to represent a "mountain", but which instead acts more like a boulder. Now this is tough when the planets are so small, because there's not much room for real elevation. But that's the problem this genre is facing, and it really is PA's second problem, after the lack of space battles, which you've solved. So see what you can do about it. It's not a deal-breaker if you don't solve it, but I just want to emphasize its importance for the creation of believable and enjoyable planets. After half a decade designing PA planets, people are bored because there's not much variation on the surfaces due to the lacking elevation.

3. The artstyle of your game is decent/utilitarian. It gets the job done, but it's nowhere as inspiring as PA's. Not much you can do about that on your own, you're doing the best you can, and for a programmer it's pretty great actually. But if people will be putting in thousands of hours in the game, they could use some better artwork. That's why I think you should prioritize making the mod tools so we can simply import PA's units wholesale. And why not also SupCom's etc. Then we can finally have massive wars between half a dozen factions or more, including the units you are making.

4. Same with music. You'd need to be a genius musician to beat Mostrom's soundtrack for PA, so let us just import any music that we want through the modding tools.

5. Your planetary surfaces are drab. All boring gray-brown mush. You need to spruce them up. You need glittering blue seas, dazzling white ice, green trees etc. Same with gas giants. Look at PA for inspiration. This game needs MORE COLOR. And more detail in general in the surface features. The ships have plenty of detail, so I can see that you can do it.

Some helpful links:

I awarded PA GOTY for 2014: https://culture.vg/reviews/awards/game-of-the-year.html

And this is my Videogame Art essay on PA: https://culture.vg/reviews/videogame-ar ... ation.html

Trailer for my PA Clan Wars (giant multiclan wars): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYyg52r3dLI

Trailer for my PA Clan League (clan vs. clan league): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jtc6MK57qw

I am ready to start running and streaming weekly clan wars and clan league events in your game the moment you add decent multiplayer support in it, and my clan, The Cult, will have a couple dozen players on the game immediately. We know several other clans from PA too that would join the events immediately.

In sum, you are the only current hope for the RTS community. None of us want to play stupid sh!t like Age of Empires on tiny square maps bounded by invisible walls all around us and with laughable 200-unit limits. We want PA2, and you are already 80% of the way there. I pray to Nietzsche to illuminate and inspire you to make the right moves so you can finish the remainder 20% and usher in a new era of real-time strategy on a galactic scale, and I and my clan are at your disposal for consultations and playtesting at any moment. Just add me and message me on Steam if you would like some help.

All the best and bon courage.
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Re: PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 10 Nov 2021 07:19

https://twitter.com/fragileexistenz/sta ... 5316635651

Fragile Existence @fragileexistenz wrote:Landing an expeditionary force on the dark side of an uninhabited (?) planet, making good use of unit real-time light sources to explore and map out the terrain.


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Great screenshot.

Super-atmospheric. I don't think this great contrast in light-dark is possible in PA. It feels like an Aliens-type scenario. How awesome would it be if there were actual aliens ready to jump you?
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Re: PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 10 Nov 2021 18:28

Space RTS/4X - DevLog #18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf4bALvvbXc

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The planets can get MASSIVE compared to PA. Go to 15:13 and watch for a minute. The zoom-in is incredible, and the elevation is way more advanced than PA's. It wasn't clear from the trailer and the screenshots, but it's clear from this video.

I'll say that the gas giants look cooler than PA's. Go to 3:40. They are stunning.

If you wanna lose your shit go to 22:50. It shows a spaceship approaching a planet, from the dark side with the sun shining on the side. This is PA2.
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Re: PC Fragile Existence

Unread postby icycalm » 12 Nov 2021 06:17

He's a casual, so it'll be a casual game. Does not want to listen to a real game designer, just like all programmers.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1672320/ ... 0936205647

Fragile Continuum wrote:Hi,

I appreciate your directness, and the time taken to type all of that up. The harsh truth is that I don't come from a gaming background of much larger-scale RTS, and I haven't personally taken part in much in the way of multiplayer RTS action since the days of RA2 and Yuri's Revenge, so it makes sense that I wouldn't necessarily be aspiring towards FE becoming the next SupCom/PA. I never even particularly enjoyed PA if I'm completely honest, though I followed the development (and my planet tech is roughly based on Uber's work for sure) and I do agree that it looks fantastic. We could argue that FE has almost gone in the opposite direction, though, giving individual units more character and reason to keep them alive, and with a more Dyson sphere-like material/item fabrication process that doesn't gel as well with a streaming economy and mass unit production.

I do think multiplayer is highly likely to happen in some form eventually, but even then I'd imagine it to be more of a skirmish between opposing fleets rather than a more traditional land grab. It would have more of the flavour of HW multiplayer, except with planet expeditionary forces being deployed to build bases for mining and production, along with more tactical battles taking place where fleets/units are competing for the same resources/planets. Furthermore, I don't know if a more territorial conquest approach is feasible from a technical perspective. Uber built the PA engine pretty much from scratch in the most lightweight manner possible specifically for the requirements of rendering multiple planets with vast numbers of units (hence the low-poly style with a focus on ease of readability), whereas I'm based in Unity-- which can hardly be said to be ideal for RTS games in general, let alone ones with lots of player controlled entities being updated across a network. Moreover, too many games are attempting to imitate what came before, whilst I'm trying to do something a little different with the fleet survival focus-- coupled with the ground excursions-- over here in FE. I'm well aware that there will be people who want the PA experience with the added space mechanics, though, so I never say never, but it's not going to be coming soon.

About the planetary terrain, I have actually reworked the planet surface terrain since the reveal trailer. Whilst the art style is still leaning towards the grittier more-realistic end of the spectrum, it does now have true elevation that allows units to climb slopes/hills/mountains as you described. The planets are a lot bigger now too. There's some footage of that in my latest dev log. I'm iterating on the art style as I can, but as you've stated, I am a solo developer-- so I'm trying to focus on the core gameplay loops rather than linger too long on the aesthetics at this stage.

Honestly, this is great feedback, though, I'm happy for people to tell me as it is. I don't personally think a campaign is more of a burden to produce than multiplayer, and I think single-player games of this nature are doing fine (Dyson sphere sold amazingly well). I'd like to be able to tell a story, and this is the medium I've chosen to do that. Thanks for the chat :)


https://steamcommunity.com/app/1672320/ ... 0936513233

icycalm wrote:Yes, I looked into your latest dev video after making this thread, and I could see the improvements. I posted about it in my forum, great stuff: https://culture.vg/forum/topic?p=34624#p34624

As for the rest, it's very disappointing, but I was sort of suspecting it. You wouldn't have focused on the campaign if you weren't a campaign player, it makes sense. And your tech analysis is sobering: so Unity can't do PA, let alone PA2. And since Dyson Sphere is also made in Unity, we can't look to them either for some hope on a PA successor.

I wonder whether, if you joined us in clan war, you'd discover how much fun proper wars with proper intelligence are. AS (Artificial Stupidity) is so bad, it's not worth playing the game against it. Are you aware that there is no AI that can handle multiplanet mechanics? A monkey can beat PA's AI in multiplanet systems. The AI can handle only single-planet (and even there it sucks). There are just too many possibilities in multiplanet for a regular AI to handle. Maybe in the future with machine learning this will be solved, but I doubt you can do this in your game. So the game will be very easy, unless you heavily script everything and probably also cheat. And even then the spark of real intelligence, and the back-and-forth of escalating one-upmanship of a multiplayer game, will be absent from your world...

And man, your planets don't even rotate I found out just now... Is this sci-fi or fantasy?

You have a long road ahead of you though, and plenty of time to evolve your taste and reconsider some of your options. Even a limited MP with limited units is better than nothing, if that's all that Unity can handle.

Here is a 2.5-hour 4-clan 3-planet war I livecasted:

Insomnia Clan Wars #6 - icycalm live cast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNJdoUZVL8

If you ever want to try something like that out, let me know. You won't want to bother with campaigns afterwards.


On the plus side, this'll be WAY closer to PA2 than Dyson Sphere. It's almost all the way there. So we're making progress AS A SPECIES, and moreover this is made by one person in contrast to DSP's five. Eventually I'll just make it myself in some future point-and-click game-making program if none of these faggots ends up listening to me.
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