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Unread postby JoshF » 13 Dec 2008 03:26

Oh man, you better! :wink:

What are you saying?

Strider Hiryuu 2 is a revolutionary game, I think. It shows you how to take 2D action games into the 21st century. My main reasoning for this is the stage design. I love how it zooms out and gives you this gigantic playfield, and especially love the continuously changing conditions of battle. Just a shitload of variety in enemies, obstacles, and arenas, and stuff. And of course, tactics.

Hiryuu is a joy to control also. Not as fluid as some people would've liked I'm sure (I'm guessing this is where the controversy is,) but I like a little fight for the input. It makes the controller more like a musical instrument...or something. You can't just walk up to something, blow into it and expect a nice sound, you need a little dexterity to go with it. They could've made Hiryuu stop intantly after running or given more control over the jumps, but they also could've given Street Fighter dial-a-combo or mapped special moves to a single button. I hope this makes sense. It's the Makaimura principle, I guess, but with a nice "modernizing" compromise of being able to control the angle of jumps slightly, or using the double-jump to change course.

Playing for score is enjoyable and completely natural. Kill everything, collect poker chips, uncover hidden bonus items. Haven't fully explored checkpoint milking yet, maybe that would be tedius since the timer is so slow.

The 3D is probably a big complaint. It's not quite a masterpiece to look at, but it's satisfying enough and I think it's pretty interesting conceptually (as in the artistic design work behind it, not the concept of 2.5D). That's probably a horrendous sentence and I apologize.

I'm glad they didn't use more 2D in the backgrounds because it would've been squandered when the camera zooms out. I don't know, how does that look in a game like Arcana Heart, Icy?
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Unread postby Macaw » 13 Dec 2008 04:25

Well, its a game I'm always coming back to every now and then trying to convince myself its better than I think it is, But the same big issue keeps getting in the way.

I agree with you on the use of the 3D camera, and control of Strider. And I dont have a problem with how the game looks, I think the sprites looks superb and the 3d backgrounds are put to good use with all that zooming.

But my problem is how each stage is cut into incredibly small pieces, with no continuity between each one. The amazing thing about the first strider is just how each stage flowed and took you from one place to another, in fact this is a general thing that is usually present in any good 2d action game (Hard Corps :wink: ) In Strider 2 though, having a stage broken into many short segments, none of which are connected to each other and each separated by that screen transition, just feels incredibly jarring to me. Its something thats rarely ever been a problem to me in action games, but in Strider 2 is just sticks out so much. None of the stages really feel satisfying due to it.

But hey, feel free to try convince me otherwise.
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Unread postby JoshF » 13 Dec 2008 04:47

I wouldn't know how to do that, I can just say that it didn't bother me. The transitions reminded me of title cards (or whatever the term is for those images used prior to a commercial break in anime) so it never crossed my mind that it would be detrimental.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Dec 2008 05:30

The way to "convince" each other in such cases is not so much by trying to make a subjective judgement appear objective, but by proposing other games which are more worthy to be on the list in place of the ones the other person is proposing. This can be hard, however, when the lists are practically empty, since there's not much competition. And not only that, but we haven't even settled on the max number of games per category yet.

For example, I could say that Hagane is more worthy to be on the 2D Action list than Strider 2 (just an example -- I am not really claiming this), but hey, if there's enough space we could simply have both. Each game you add then depends on all the OTHER games your propose that the list should contain.
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Unread postby mees » 13 Dec 2008 06:19

Are any of the Thief iterations going to be on the list? I think Thief is a very good game and essential to the first-person shooter genre. I was reminded of Thief after reading the Deus Ex review--both games were products of Looking Glass, more or less, and have many similarities.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Dec 2008 06:44

I don't know dude, maybe. Asking questions of this sort isn't helping in any way, though, so I'd appreciated it if you didn't.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Dec 2008 06:46

I figured I might as well bang out a little summary of the different flavors of videogame "sequels" that exist. It should help us a lot. Note it will be stream-of-consciousness type stuff, so it won't be particularly well-written. But it will be a good start, and I'll anyway eventually turn it into a proper article.

----------------


1. Not sequels

These are sequels in name only. I.e. they are completely different games from the original, which, however, for purely marketing reasons have been slapped with the name of a popular game. They might be dressed up with some elements of the original game, but these are mostly of a secondary or merely aesthetic nature. Games like these do not get a free pass on account of their "predecessors": they will be considered for inclusion purely on their own merits, and, if included, will take up a brand-new slot.

Examples: Metroid Prime, Neo Contra, Command & Conquer: Renegade, World of Warcraft, Halo Wars, that Game Cube Wars game by some British dudes, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, pretty much every 2D action game that was translated to 3 dimensions and every 3D game translated to 2, etc. etc.


2. New engine

These deserve the name "sequel" more than any others. They have brand-new engines, and as a result usually play and feel quite differently from the original. So not only are their scenarios different, but the mechanics as well, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the game. These should be considered on an individual basis. If they play very differently from the original then they may deserve an entirely new slot by themselves; if they do not play very differently (because, for example, the engine was used mostly for visual upgrades), then they should be considered for inclusion alongside the original -- i.e. occupying the same slot.

Examples: Half-Life 2, Deus Ex 2, The Super Shinobi, Contra Spirits, WarCraft II, WarCraft III, StarCraft 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Bare Knuckle II, Bare Knuckle III, The House of the Dead 4, Time Crisis 2, 3, 4, Project Gotham Racing 2, 3, etc.


3. New scenario

These usually (but not always) retain the same engine. Apart from that, they are either exactly the same as the original, rules-wise, or introduce only slight alterations. The main reason for their existence is to give the player a new set of stages to trundle through. If the original game was great, they too will be great by definition, except perhaps if the rule changes really suck or if the new stages really suck. These games, if they are included, will ALWAYS be included alongside the original game -- i.e. they do not deserve a new slot. They are basically expansion packs for the player who has finished the original game and simply wants more. If he doesn't want more, fine. That only means he doesn't want more -- it doesn't mean the "sequel" sucks (because it's not really quite a sequel).

Examples: The Super Shinobi II, Gears of War II, Shin Contra, Metal Slug 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, all Wars games and all Fire Emblem games, Icewind Dale II, Golden Axe II, Sonic 2, 3, all the GTA III games, etc.


4. Minor rule revisions

These come in different varieties. Your lowest kind are basically patches. Every patch modifies at least one rule, so it results, basically, in a "sequel". The thing with patches is that they are not supposed to ADD new stuff -- just to fix existing problems -- but there are plenty of examples of patches which added significant new features -- for better or worse. These are free, which is why no one regards them as sequels, even though some of them have more of a right to that label than sequels you have to pay money for.

Then you have stuff like Virtua Fighter 5 Ver. A, B, C, D, etc., which are a step up from patches because, though they may fix bugs too, their stated objective is not to fix bugs but to ADD new stuff. But again there are no black and white distinctions: there are patches that add more stuff than new versions, and new versions which fix more bugs than patches. The other thing about these new versions is that they are also usually free (though perhaps not for the operators).

Next step up is upgrades of the kind you usually see in competitive multiplayer games such as fighters, for example. The super turbo kind of deal. All of these, together with patched versions, and updated versions, etc. etc. are automatically included alongside the original game, as long as they don't fuck up the game too badly (which they usually don't).


5. New skin

This is a weird category. Off the top of my head I can only remember one such case: Uo Poko and Mushihime Tama. (Note: I know the site layout in those links is screwed right now -- I am working on fixing it).

The thing here is that these two games ARE the same game, the second being a sequel to the first in all but name (and of course theme, aesthetics, etc.) They play so similarly that if I decided to include the first, and if I deemed that the small changes introduced by the second were not detrimental in any way (which they aren't), then I'd be obliged to also include the second one -- alongside the first.

(Note that this is an example -- these two games are not really good enough to be included.)

------------


So yeah, I think that is all. Have I missed anything? I think all videogame "sequels" (and even games which are not officially called sequels but in fact are) can be more or less neatly fitted into one of the above categories. This would then make it easier to determine whether a "sequel" deserves a new slot or not.

All the above are just basically general guidelines. At the end of the day you have to consider each game on an individual basis. What you need to decide is whether the experience of playing the sequel is different enough so as to deserve to take up a brand-new slot. Most simply don't.*

Meanwhile, you have the marketing people doing their best to confuse you with all sorts of unnatural naming conventions and dirty tricks.


*and that is in no way a bad thing
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Unread postby zinger » 13 Dec 2008 15:41

JoshF and Macaw, I've only played Strider Hiryuu 2 briefly (one or two credits), how would you say it compares to Cannon Dancer? Would you say Strider 2 better deserves a list placing than Cannon Dancer?
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Unread postby Macaw » 13 Dec 2008 19:32

Personally I'd put Cannon Dancer far ahead of Strider 2. I think its an absolute graphical masterpiece, showing an unprecedented amount of creativity and technical talent, and also tells possibly the most esoteric and bizzare, yet at the same time enthralling story possibly ever in an arcade game, and without any pretentiousness. The fact the mechanics and such are top notch is also a plus, but still overshadowed by the biggest assets of the game which I just mentioned.

I don't think Strider 2 is a bad game, I think its solid and interesting enough, and have played it a fair bit myself. Its just that I don't find it to excel anything past just 'good'.

Not that I am against having it included in a list such as this, everyones opinions and tastes differ greatly, and I'm sure Josh could go on much more about why he finds the game an achievement special enough to be included.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Dec 2008 20:09

Added a bunch of sequels/updates/revisions to the list, to demonstrate how all the stuff I explained is going to work: R-Type II, Kururin Paradise, Tekki Taisen, Arcana Heart Full!, Arcana Heart 2, Suggoi! Arcana Heart 2.

None of these sequels/updates/revisions have been reviewed at length, and some never will. This is because everything that was said in the original reviews still applies. Apart from that, R-Type II is a bit prettier, a bit tighter, and quite a bit more difficult than the original. Kururin Paradise is much prettier, with a new overworld map and the difficulty jacked up a bit. Tekki Taisen adds online battles and a few new mechs. And the Arcana Heart sequels add characters, arcanas and stages, mess with the balance, and from 2 onwards add an extra button and some more extensive system changes (which I have not had the opportunity to study yet, but which the consensus among players seems to be that, generally speaking, are for the better). There's more to be said on each of these, of course, but nothing terribly important.

In the same vein, Josh may want to add some of the Metal Slug and/or Contra games to the list, without being obliged to review them right now (or ever)...
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Dec 2008 20:17

To put it another way, the titles after the slash "/" are there for people who want more of the same. (Or, in the case of stuff like Arcana Heart Full!, more refined versions of the original thing.)
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Unread postby zinger » 13 Dec 2008 21:20

Macaw wrote:Personally I'd put Cannon Dancer far ahead of Strider 2. I think its an absolute graphical masterpiece, showing an unprecedented amount of creativity and technical talent, and also tells possibly the most esoteric and bizzare, yet at the same time enthralling story possibly ever in an arcade game, and without any pretentiousness. The fact the mechanics and such are top notch is also a plus, but still overshadowed by the biggest assets of the game which I just mentioned.

Agreed, the visual aspect of Cannon Dancer is stunning. Mechanics-wise, the development from Strider feels surprisingly natural and still manages to increase the complexity and the player's ability immensly (for instance: the options system that lets you copy-paste yourself to strategic spots, in order to deal damage to multiple parts of bosses at the same time, or build defensive barriers and formations etc.). Feels sort of like how Taito expanded upon Darius' and Darius Gaiden's mechanics in G.Darius (as in just as elegant). I think I need to pick up SH2 this summer and join in on the debate. Ideally, they could perhaps all be lined up as one single entry.
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Unread postby icycalm » 18 Dec 2008 05:40

Spacewar! (MIT, 1962)
Star Raiders (Atari, 1979)
Zork I: The Great Underground Empire (Infocom, 1980; PDP-11 version)
Tetris (Alexey Pajitnov, 1985)
Sim City (Maxis, 1989)
Super Mario Brothers 3 (Nintendo, 1990)
Civilisation I/II (MicroProse, 1991-1996)
DOOM (id, 1993)
Sensible World of Soccer (Sensible, 1994)
Warcraft I/II/III (Blizzard, 1994-2003)


http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Game ... ame_Canon/

Their approach has some similarities to mine, but of course they do not offer any serious criticism -- in other words it's more or less just a generic list like any other. As for my comments regarding the games currently on there:

-The Civilization entry should include III, and perhaps even IV
-Having Doom without Wolfenstein-3D is ridiculous
-WarCraft I was shit and several years behind its competitors when it came out -- it should be nowhere near the list
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Unread postby icycalm » 18 Dec 2008 05:53

Also: lol. How obvious that the list was compiled by American developers. Only a single Japanese game on there, and two European ones.
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Unread postby Bradford » 18 Dec 2008 17:01

icycalm wrote:-WarCraft I was shit and several years behind its competitors when it came out -- it should be nowhere near the list


Not to mention the fact that Warcraft II and III were very different. I think they would stretch the qualification for simultaneous listing as an original followed by an 'update,' unlike a game like Civ.
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Unread postby JoshF » 18 Dec 2008 23:27

Curious to see what their justification for Zork is. Doesn't even take advantage of the medium, unless you count not having to turn pages and keep notes.
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Unread postby Molloy » 25 Mar 2009 21:12

I think it'd be fairly easy to make a convincing argument for Sensible World of Soccer (or perhaps one of the earlier iterations) being on the sports list.

In Pro Evolution and Fifa the TV style camera focuses on where the ball is. What you need to see is the postion of the other players so you can make a decision about who you should be passing to.

Then there's the after touch system which lets you put the ball exactly where you want it assuming you execute the technique perfectly. In Fifa and Pro Evo every time you pass the ball, or take a shot on goal the game is rolling a virtual dice in the background to see if you were successful.

I can back up what the other fellows are saying about Quake. I once went to a LAN with one of the best Quake players in the country present. He was so drunk he fell off his chair a couple of times, but still managed 70 kills to my 1 or 2. It was pretty ridiculous.
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Unread postby mothmanspirit » 26 Mar 2009 14:51

JoshF wrote:Curious to see what their justification for Zork is. Doesn't even take advantage of the medium, unless you count not having to turn pages and keep notes.


Interactive fiction games or text adventures or whatever-you-want-to-call-thems are adventure games, like Beneath A Steel Sky and Day of the Tentacle and Myst. So Zork was the first adventure game.

I find typing commands into a text parser much more fun and mysterious than pointing and clicking. The only things I can think of that normal adventure games have over text adventures are nice graphics.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Mar 2009 17:39

Molloy wrote:I can back up what the other fellows are saying about Quake. I once went to a LAN with one of the best Quake players in the country present. He was so drunk he fell off his chair a couple of times, but still managed 70 kills to my 1 or 2. It was pretty ridiculous.


Yeah, I am now convinced that Quake should be in. Now all we have to do is find someone who can do justice to the review.

Moreover, I just got these recommendations from Cacophanus:

Cacophanus wrote:Anyway, doing a book is also a good idea and Virtual On should be in there really (along with the original Armored Core). As for other games, here are few that jump to mind...

Image Fight (Arcade)
Assault Suits Leynos (Megadrive)
Assault Suits Valken (Super Famicom)
Omega Boost (PlayStation)


I am hoping he will take care of at least Virtual On and Armored Core. The Assault Suits games could be handled by Macaw or Cacophanus or both of them if they want. The other two I don't know much about. Someone would have to write good reviews of them, and then I'd have to play them myself to be convinced.
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Unread postby Recap » 30 Mar 2009 18:25

I'm not sure that any of those deserve the "Videogame Art" label, to be honest.
Or if they didn't want players to credit feed, since basic design choices all point to COIN OP.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Mar 2009 19:56

For games which I am not going to be reviewing personally, a lot will depend on the reviews other people will write. They'll have to basically convince me, and then I'll have to validate what they say by playing the games myself at some point. So far, I am fine with all the reviews written by others (Deus Ex, Metal Slug, Hard Corps, Herzog Zwei, Half-Life, etc.) All the rest are just possibilities -- not to mention the fact that, if no one can do justice to them with appropriate reviews, they will never end up getting included anyway.

Moreover, this is an iterative process. Removing a game from the list only takes a few seconds, and we can make as many changes as we want... until it's time to print the first volume. At that point, I have to be 100% sure about every single game that will be included, so if there are any controversial choices I'll just hold them back for the second, or third volume or whatever.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Mar 2009 19:57

Also, it'd be great to hear which games you think should be included instead... This is sort of what this thread is about in the first place.
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Unread postby Strifer » 30 Mar 2009 20:41

HellSinker. I've never seen a shmup that is as complex as this game, and as confusing. Multiple scoring systems, Aura system, multiple characters and loadouts, multiple stages, alternate versions of stages... It really does no justice to this game, and may be misleading as there are so many little things that make up this game that I believe it would be a nightmare to do a write-up of all the mechanics.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Mar 2009 20:50

Strifer wrote:It really does no justice to this game


What really does no justice to this game?

Strifer wrote:and may be misleading


What may be misleading?

Strifer wrote:as there are so many little things that make up this game that I believe it would be a nightmare to do a write-up of all the mechanics and how they work within the game.


It can't be as complex as Civilization, and people have been writing decent write-ups of Civilization games for decades, so I wouldn't worry about that. A person who knows the game, and who is not a retard, would be perfectly capable of doing a decent write up of all its mechanics. These are videogames we are talking about, not space shuttles.
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Unread postby Strifer » 30 Mar 2009 21:12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dc7j04mxKA

I've clocked more than thirty hours on this game, and I still don't get what half of these counters do.

EDIT: I mean, I think I have an idea what they do, but there is so much stuff going on at one moment that I could not pinpoint what goes where. Terra counters, Jewel counters, Octagon counters, Life counter, Stella counter, Breakthrough, Immortality, Soul Accumulation and Release, and a bunch of other stuff that I'm missing. I thought I had a handle on the game, BAM! alternate stages, BAM! secret bosses, BAM! extra characters, and I haven't even managed a full run.

Give it a try at least.
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