Theory

[icycalm]

I just came across this gem:

It was a sad, sad testament to the state of the industry that Arcana Heart was judged as one of the better releases.

http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/ ... ngbeat.htm

This coming from someone who apparently plays fighting games for their storylines, and who has little idea of how they actually work.

Here's another review by the same author, this time of KOF XI, in which he manages to almost completely avoid discussing the game's fighting system:

If all of that went over your head, don’t worry - they’re all minor system changes that add to the depth of the game. Like the best of fighting games, The King of Fighters is as deep as you want it to be.

Oh is that so, Kurt? That's good to know ^_~

One miserable little paragraph in a 10+ paragraph review. That's how much space he devotes to discussing KOF XI's fighting system -- its gameplay, to put it in his own language. The rest is waffle about unlockable characters or some shit.

http://www.siliconera.com/2006/07/17/th ... ghters-xi/



And here are some more nuggets of wisdom by the same author:

At its heart, Mushihime-sama is barely any different from any other Cave shooter.

Considering Cave’s last game, Espgaluda, had a neat little gimmick that allowed you to slow down time whenever you want

Like most every shoot em up, Mushihime-sama is an unfortunately brief experience - after twenty minutes, you’ve seen all there is to see, and the extra modes don’t really add a whole lot.

http://www.siliconera.com/mushihime-sama/


Honestly, stuff like this should not go in the "lol" thread but in the "sob" thread. Because it's worth crying over. How the author of a website called HARDCORE GAMING 101 can get away with rubbish like this without becoming the laughing stock of the hardcore gaming community is beyond me.



DISCLAIMER: I do like Kurt. I do like his website. But the moment he starts talking about games with actual depth he immediately becomes as bad as racketboy.

[Dale]

I can't believe that Kurt wrote this shit. I'm a member at his forum too.

[icycalm]

Ask for your money back.

[JoshF]

Unbelievable. Hardcore Gaming indeed.

[Recap]

Honestly, stuff like this should not go in the "lol" thread but in the "sob" thread.

That's more or less what I was going to say when I read your latest reply to me here. Stuff like the one from HG101or Racketboy's rarely make me laugh these days if I end up reading them. Too overused and typical shit to be funny instead of boring. (But then I thought -- "whatever").

I just came across this gem:

It was a sad, sad testament to the state of the industry that Arcana Heart was judged as one of the better releases.

You know what; I think that article's true pearls are these:

But if the doujin scene has taught us anything, it's that it likes to pick up where the professional industry was lacking.

[Big Bang Beat]'s taken to the Japanese arcades,

and not that statement you posted. Indeed, I agree with it. Arcana Heart may have a very nice engine but it still lacks a commendable graphic design and variety. I don't want to know about true hi-res and plausible visual executions if the characters are boring, the backgrounds are poor, and the theme, lame. Therefore it's a shame that something [visually] so uninspired like Arcana Heart may still be the best fighting game of 2007. Doesn't say much about today's industry and I'm sure you're aware of that. And notice I don't care about "background stories" almost even for RPGs.

DISCLAIMER: I do like Kurt. I do like his website. But the moment he starts talking about games with actual depth he immediately becomes as bad as racketboy.

It's not only an issue of talking about games with depth. It's an issue of talking about games he just doesn't know well enough and doesn't like nor tries to like. It's an issue of "quantity over quality". But hey, I myself am liking the diplomatic Icy.

[icycalm]

That's more or less what I was going to say when I read your latest reply to me here. Stuff like the one from HG101or Racketboy's rarely make me laugh these days if I end up reading them. Too overused and typical shit to be funny instead of boring. (But then I thought -- "whatever").

But with racketboy's stuff I really do laugh. How can you not laugh when you see his photoshopped HDTVs running Metal Slug, the bombastic titles he comes up with for his random Top 20 lists, and the freaking gigantic DIGG THIS buttons all over the place. The man is a comic genius.

Indeed, I agree with it. Arcana Heart may have a very nice engine but it still lacks a commendable graphic design and variety. I don't want to know about true hi-res and plausible visual executions if the characters are boring, the backgrounds are poor, and the theme, lame. Therefore it's a shame that something [visually] so uninspired like Arcana Heart may still be the best fighting game of 2007.

The thing about that game's theme and graphic design is that they really ARE a matter of taste. Personally, I love the theme. I know others who also love the theme. And I fully understand those who hate the theme, and who can't bring themselves to play the game because of it.

Think of it this way: what if I fucking hated samurais? What if I could not stand playing any game that had samurais in it? Then I would not be able to enjoy Samurai Spirits nor Gekka no Kenshi. And wouldn't you then be perfectly justified in telling me, 'It's your loss, icycalm"? Of course you would.

So that is why I am telling you, "It's your loss, Recap", if you tell me that you cannot enjoy Arcana Heart because it has little girls in it.

So the theme is a matter of taste, but I do agree with you on how poorly it is executed. The girls all look like inbreds, and the backgrounds are completely lifeless. However, the new characters that the sequel is introducing are all a step up, so at least the developers are aware of the issue. (I don't know if they are doing anything about the backgrounds, but it doesn't look like it).



But back to our friends racketboy and hardcoregamer101:

It's an issue of "quantity over quality".

This is what I meant a couple of pages back when I was telling racketboy that there is a deeper issue here. He asked me what I meant via PM and this is what I replied:

See the most important factor that determines the quality of your writing is whether or not you have something worthwhile to say. When your mentality is like this:

I always feel the need to post something worthwhile ever 2 or 3 days (on top of my day job), so that consumes a lot of my day.

... you are not really helping the quality of your writing.

Recap is the exact opposite of you. He is a perfectionist. He only updates three times a year, but his stuff is awesome.

Of course, the winner in terms of traffic on the internet is the guy who can shovel the most shit on his frontpage in the least amount of time. Hence, Kotaku having so much traffic.

But when you go down that route you must be prepared for guys like Recap and me to have the occasional laugh at you. It goes with the territory. :(

[Recap]

The man is a comic genius.

After reading his replies here, I'm not sure about "genius"...

theme and graphic design

I believe I indeed wrote that Gekka no Kenshi can be loved even by the biggest samurai hater out there as the conclusion in my review of it at Postback...

You know, I was trying to be objective with that line about AH. It's true that "little girls" is not exactly my thing, but I was keeping that feeling apart. "Little girls" as a theme for a fighting game is lame even if you like it. AH's character design is terribly generic, impersonal and boring, though one still may like it. And AH's backgrounds are utterly poor, no matter if some people like them.

It's all about comparisons and standards, I think. The problem with AH's theme is that there's already something called "Asuka 120%", "Variable Geo", and "Touki Denshou", which used it much better, and 10~15 years ago. The problem with AH's character design is that there's already something called "Garou", "SF", "Daraku Tenshi", "Waku Waku 7", etc, etc, which overkill AH's characters, both in their sprite forms and in their artwork, despite preferring "little girls" to "strong machos" or "weird creatures". And the problem with AH's backgrounds is that whichever the random fighting game we take, they'll lose, I'm afraid.

Is what I wrote there only "a matter of taste"? Nah, c'mon.



And I can enjoy AH despite its little girls, believe me. I never said the game's totally ruined. Just "flawed by poor art designs".

[icycalm]

I believe I indeed wrote that Gekka no Kenshi can be loved even by the biggest samurai hater out there as the conclusion in my review of it at Postback...

Fair enough, but I still disagree. If you hate samurais you hate samurais and that's it.

"Little girls" as a theme for a fighting game is lame even if you like it.

Again, I'll disagree. I don't see anything lame about a fighting game with little girls. They could make a fighting game about little baby seals and I still wouldn't find it lame if it was executed properly. This is videogames we are talking about. The weirder and crazier they are the better, I think.

AH's character design is terribly generic, impersonal and boring, though one still may like it. And AH's backgrounds are utterly poor, no matter if some people like them.

This, as I said, is a matter of execution. Yes, the execution was lame, but that has nothing to do with whether the theme itself was lame or not. Execution is more or less an objective issue, theme is not.

It's all about comparisons and standards, I think. The problem with AH's theme is that there's already something called "Asuka 120%", "Variable Geo", and "Touki Denshou", which used it much better, and 10~15 years ago. The problem with AH's character design is that there's already something called "Garou", "SF", "Daraku Tenshi", "Waku Waku 7", etc, etc, which overkill AH's characters, both in their sprite forms and in their artwork, despite preferring "little girls" to "strong machos" or "weird creatures". And the problem with AH's backgrounds is that whichever the random fighting game we take, they'll lose, I'm afraid.

The girl games you mention in the beginning have nowhere near the complexity and depth of Arcana Heart's fighting system. Maybe the execution of their themes was better than Arcana Heart's, but I have already agreed with you on this point.

Same goes for your comparison with Waku Waku 7, Garou, etc. Yes, their themes are executed better and you will get no objection from me. That still does not make Arcana Heart's theme lame.

What can I say, I fucking love the game. I would have loved it even more if the sprite designs and backgrounds were better, but honestly, for me they are good enough.

And I can enjoy AH despite its little girls, believe me. I never said the game's totally ruined. Just "flawed by poor art designs".

I agree 100% with the above estimation. It is indeed flawed by poor art designs, but not by poor theme.

[Recap]

I don't see anything lame about a fighting game with little girls. They could make a fighting game about little baby seals and I still wouldn't find it lame if it was executed properly. This is videogames we are talking about. The weirder and crazier they are the better, I think.

I'm not calling it "lame" for being weird or crazy, but for its lack of "elegance". You can make a weird, crazy video-game theme and still be "elegant" (check WW7, or even Z-series stuff like Twin Goddesses). AH's art designer was not elegant. He just took an overused (and silly) premise --"only lolitas who fight each other"-- in order to satisfy 15-years-old boys who masturbate with cartoons. Additionally, he did it without an actual personal approach, without consistence, without style. And that's why AH's theme is lame. If you prefer, I can put it this way -- "the usage of the theme for AH is lame given today's standards".

AH's character design is terribly generic, impersonal and boring, though one still may like it. And AH's backgrounds are utterly poor, no matter if some people like them.

This, as I said, is a matter of execution. Yes, the execution was lame, but that has nothing to do with whether the theme itself was lame or not. Execution is more or less an objective issue, theme is not.

Only mentioning here that I indeed believe there's a part in AH's visual "execution" which I think is great -- that related to the technical aspects like resolution, sprite tracing, etc.

[icycalm]

I'm not calling it "lame" for being weird or crazy, but for its lack of "elegance". You can make a weird, crazy video-game theme and still be "elegant" (check WW7, or even Z-series stuff like Twin Goddesses). AH's art designer was not elegant. He just took an overused (and silly) premise --"only lolitas who fight each other"-- in order to satisfy 15-years-old boys who masturbate with cartoons. Additionally, he did it without an actual personal approach, without consistence, without style. And that's why AH's theme is lame. If you prefer, I can put it this way -- "the usage of the theme for AH is lame given today's standards".

Your last sentence doesn't really make sense. If you replace "usage" with "execution" then it does make sense, in which case we are saying the same exact thing.

AH's theme is "little girls fighting". As such, calling it lame is wrong. The designs are not good, yes, but there's nothing wrong with the theme, except if you have something personal against little girls.

[Recap]

Let me try again: "15-years-old Japanese girls with abnormally big tits who fight each other dressed in their scholar uniforms in a no-men scenario". And that, in 2007. A moment where most of 2D fighting fans are over 20 and a moment where the video-game industry has seen this premise once and again. That's what I meant with "usage"; it's related to the author's intention.

Another example for lame theme: http://gameboy.ign.com/articles/376/376162p1.html

Hope we can agree finally.

[icycalm]

I expected much better from you, Recap. These are the kinds of arguments that SB people would give me.

"15-years-old Japanese girls with abnormally big tits who fight each other dressed in their scholar uniforms in a no-men scenario".

1. Only ONE girl has large breasts.

2. Only THREE girls are wearing school uniforms.

3. There are ELEVEN girls.

http://www.arcanaheart.jp/chara.html

And that, in 2007. A moment where most of 2D fighting fans are over 20 and a moment where the video-game industry has seen this premise once and again.

No idea what you are talking about here. My 30th birthday is in two days and I have no problem with Arcana Heart's theme. I do, however, have a problem with Cho Aniki's theme. Like I said, the theme is a matter of personal preference. I have a gay friend who loves Cho Aniki, for example.

it's related to the author's intention.

The author's intention was to make a game that would stand out in the saturated environment of Japan's arcade fighting scene, and he succeeded beyond all expectations. The game stands out both visually and in terms of its mechanics. Yuki deserves its success.

[Recap]

SB people would think that the theme makes of this game automatically a bad game. Or even its 2D graphics. Or even its origin. So for the God's sake...

1. Only ONE girl has large breasts.

2. Only THREE girls are wearing school uniforms.

3. There are ELEVEN girls.

http://www.arcanaheart.jp/chara.html

I can count four large breasts there! And now I see it, they're all under 15... And again, it's a no-men scenario. And they fight... The sexual/lolita lure is there, and the theme is developed around it. That, in this day and age, is lame.

Chou Aniki's theme is quite lame, too. But it was somewhat original when it was released. Originality helps a lot to hide lameness. Anyhow, I'm not saying that lame themes can't be loved, much less the games which use them.

The author's intention was to make a game that would stand out in the saturated environment of Japan's arcade fighting scene, and he succeeded beyond all expectations. The game stands out both visually and in terms of its mechanics. Yuki deserves its success.

I don't agree with the part about the fighting game scene being saturated. It was saturated in 1997, but not in 2007. In fact, if the most popular fighting games in today's scene is stuff from 5~10 years ago, the industry/market is failing somehow. I agree though; Yuki succeeded. EA succeeded too with the FIFA series. I was not talking about the company's intention, but about the [artwork] author's. The artistic purpose and not the economic one.

[icycalm]

SB people would think that the theme makes of this game automatically a bad game. Or even its 2D graphics. Or even its origin. So for the God's sake...

lol, true.

And again, it's a no-men scenario.

Thank God! I was beginning to lose hope with all the no-women scenarios on the market! Arcana Heart is a good first step in restoring the balance.

The sexual/lolita lure is there, and the theme is developed around it. That, in this day and age, is lame.

Recap, I am starting to get a bit annoyed with how you keep insulting my tastes by calling them lame. There are dozens of games on the market with manly men with big biceps and six-packs swinging gigantic swords around and being all macho. If this is the sort of thing that floats your boat then fine, I am not going to call you gay nor am I going to call your tastes lame. I expect you to please extend the same courtesy to me though.

Chou Aniki's theme is quite lame, too.

According to your tastes, I guess so. I bet a lot of people in San Francisco would disagree with you though. Perhaps we should just gas them to death, I don't know.

I don't agree with the part about the fighting game scene being saturated. It was saturated in 1997, but not in 2007.

sat·u·rat·ed (sāch'ə-rā'tĭd) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Unable to hold or contain more; full.


The 2D fighting market can only support so many games at any given time. This is because each player can only play one or two games at a time. When I walk into HEY arcade I see people playing GGXX, Melty Blood, KOFXI, Tenka, SFIII, and a dozen other less popular games. For a new game to break in there and pull players away from all the other cabs it HAS to stand out, both in its presentation and in its mechanics. That is why Arcana Heart has little girls and not the same fucking warriors/samurais that we've been playing with since the beginning of videogames.

I was not talking about the company's intention, but about the [artwork] author's. The artistic purpose and not the economic one.

There was no artistic purpose. The author/artist was a poor hack who got paid to do whatever the boss told him to. The boss decided to go with the "cute little girl" theme because it would stand out in the arcades. Mission accomplished. If you have a thing against little cute girls, tough luck. Play one of the other games.

[Macaw]

I'm straight, and I think Choh Aniki's theme is totally awesome, and there are heaps of awesome character designs and really incredible artwork (particularly in the first 2 games). The series went downhill though, the Playstation game is ugly and mostly just tries too hard to be as weird as possible without actually having any kind of decent art or anything, and the PS2 game is total garbage.

Arcana Heart is something I would play given the opportunity, but definitely not something I am particularly interested in due to the theme. I have no problem with all girl casts, but I find it to be just a bit too generic/dull in execution, although technically the visuals are very nice.

These are of course just personal opinions. Fighting over who's opinion is the 'right one' for whether or not a visual theme is lame (and not the actual quality to which the theme itself is done) is a waste of time.

[Recap]

And again, it's a no-men scenario.

Thank God! I was beginning to lose hope with all the no-women scenarios on the market! Arcana Heart is a good first step in restoring the balance.

Maybe there's where the point resides, indeed. Saving the SFC episode of Chou Aniki, you can't name a single "male" fighting game where "manly men with big biceps etc fighting each other" is actually the _main_ theme, much less which involves a sexual lure. And please don't forget that "muscular machos" makes much more sense if we're talking about fighting. Yeah, we don't need "sense" in a video-game theme, but even weirdness and crazyness need a point to them, need "elegance". That's the problem with AH's theme. It's "lolitas fighting each other" just for the hell of it. They developed the game's scenario after the characters and not the contrary. You only can afford to do that when you have _good_ character designs. That's what I'm calling "lame" and what I meant with "intention".

Recap, I am starting to get a bit annoyed with how you keep insulting my tastes by calling them lame. There are dozens of games on the market with manly men with big biceps and six-packs swinging gigantic swords around and being all macho. If this is the sort of thing that floats your boat then fine, I am not going to call you gay nor am I going to call your tastes lame. I expect you to please extend the same courtesy to me though.

Come on now. I'm not saying that your tastes are necessarily "lame". I'm talking about AH's theme. If you ask me, it's hard to find a non-lame theme in video-games, especially in fighting games, and even so I usually love them all (unless the characters are made with polygons or are upscaled from their design rez, that is). AH just beats all them put together, that's all.

I don't agree with the part about the fighting game scene being saturated. It was saturated in 1997, but not in 2007.

sat·u·rat·ed (sāch'ə-rā'tĭd) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Unable to hold or contain more; full.


The 2D fighting market can only support so many games at any given time. This is because each player can only play one or two games at a time. When I walk into HEY arcade I see people playing GGXX, Melty Blood, KOFXI, Tenka, SFIII, and a dozen other less popular games. For a new game to break in there and pull players away from all the other cabs it HAS to stand out, both in its presentation and in its mechanics. That is why Arcana Heart has little girls and not the same fucking warriors/samurais that we've been playing with since the beginning of videogames.

My English is quite weak, I'm aware, but there's no need for dictionary entries, trust me. What I said doesn't oppose what you wrote there. If the HEY fellas are still playing GGXX, SFIII and whatnot, they're playing "stuff from 5~10 years ago". That means that they don't find enough [good] titles in today's market. Hence my disagreement with the usage of the word "saturation" to referring to the current "fighting game scene".

There was no artistic purpose. The author/artist was a poor hack who got paid to do whatever the boss told him to. The boss decided to go with the "cute little girl" theme because it would stand out in the arcades. Mission accomplished.If you have a thing against little cute girls, tough luck. Play one of the other games.

I have a thing against "little cute girls" starring fighting games, much like I have a thing against Barbie as a "secret agent" starring an action video-game, yeah.

And sure. Yuki succeeded. EA does succeed with every FIFA too. There's almost always an "artistic purpose", though. Not every game is Tetris, after all.

Fighting over who's opinion is the 'right one' for whether or not a visual theme is lame (and not the actual quality to which the theme itself is done) is a waste of time.

I was not discussing "visual themes", but "themes". "Premises". And while I believe that that always leaves room for "opinions", I also thought some starting points were hardly debatable. I agree that it's "the quality to which the theme itself is done" what actually matters, but in the case of this very game, we have the same sentiments.

[NFG]

Personally I agree with all of you:

Icy is right when he says the game is more important than the visuals, and I have heard that the AC 'game' is pretty great.

Recap's right when he says the visuals are lame (sorry Icy, when I first saw this game I thought it was a dating sim). When I see it I can't help but think it's just a doujin game, some lonley dudes in their bedroom slapping girlie sprites over a fighting engine. You might not be wrong to like it, but it's just not genre appropriate.

Macaw is definitely right, his entire post drips rightness.

[icycalm]

Back to lols:

http://www.insertcredit.com/archives/002174.html

[MAXCHAIN]

I forgot, arcade games should cost $10 or less.

[icycalm]

Yeah, that is the second lol. The first lol was when I made my post, at which time the update had not yet been made, and Brandon was telling everyone that the game had been released "a while back" because that's what he had read on Wikipedia.

[Topdrunkee]

I can't believe that Kurt wrote this shit. I'm a member at his forum too.

It's not too surprising imo.
You should see how inaccurate the Shin Megami Tensei/MEGATEN, & Dragon Quest editorials are.
I shrug every time I see somebody linking to 101's SMT article, but I'm not going to do anything about it.
(No way am I taking the time off of my day to write an article about a franchise that has over 50 games, and all of them are at least 80 hours long.)
I have nothing against that site though. It deserves respect if only because it serves as a library for relatively unknown games. (Or games that most mainstream gamers don't play.)

[icycalm]

It deserves respect if only because it serves as a library for relatively unknown games. (Or games that most mainstream gamers don't play.)

I agree. All I am saying is that they should rethink their priorities. Better to review 2 games you've played extensively, than to throw together 10 reviews in the same time, which will naturally end up half-filled with bullshit.


Moving on, I am currently lolling at this site:

http://www.kikizo.com/

It's got so many Google ads that my browser chugs when I try to scroll down. How can anyone take seriously a site with so many Google ads? I bet he doesn't even make any money off of them.

[Flying Omelette]

For some reason, that reminded me of this topic.

[icycalm]

I can't remember the last time I visited 1UP. I think it must have been when James Mielke posted an utterly ridiculous Virtua Fighter 5 preview.

By the way, what do you think of this Jeremy Parish character? I've only read a couple of his reviews and I thought they sucked (the one where he praises the crappy FFXII: Revenant Wings comes to mind), but most other people seem to regard him as a model mainstream game reviewer.

[Flying Omelette]

By the way, what do you think of this Jeremy Parish character? I've only read a couple of his reviews and I thought they sucked (the one where he praises the crappy FFXII: Revenant Wings comes to mind), but most other people seem to regard him as a model mainstream game reviewer.

Me, personally? I don't really know him. The only article I've ever read of his was the Final Fantasy VII review, which I only found out about through FryingBear. I thought it was a good read, but I can't comment on accuracy since I haven't played most of the games he's mentioned in it.

Oh, wait, there was one other thing. Apparently, he wrote some article claiming Dracula X was the first Castlevania game that had multiple playable characters, even though that game came LONG after Castlevania 3.