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Unread postby NFG » 10 Jan 2008 01:26

So INSTEAD of doing that, if you see me saying something that you THINK is silly, the only way to respond is this:

"I see what you are saying but I believe you are wrong for this, this and that reason."

I dunno, icy, that's exactly what I thought I did.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 03:37

Read Macaw's and Josh's comments in this thread. They said what they had to say in a perfectly calm, friendly, and relaxed manner. They were clear and succinct, and they offended no one.

You and Recap, on the other hand, are just shouting at each other like children, and, quite frankly, after a point it is annoying.

What I am trying to get through both your heads is that you ought to respect each other. You have both obviously spent years thinking long and hard on this subject, and this fact alone should be enough reason to make you respect each other. Recap's views are no more silly than yours -- but even if they are, you are not convincing anyone by simply calling them silly. Neither is Recap convincing anyone that your opinions are horseshit by calling them that.

There is only one thing you are convincing me with these comments, and that is that neither of you has a strong grasp on the issues involved. Resorting to namecalling and barb-throwing is a sign of weakness. If you or Recap had a firm grasp on the subject, you'd have posted a clear, lucid, succinct explanation whose truth would be immediately apparent.

So neither of you have the full answers to the questions we are asking here, but what you do have is arguments and observations which you've accumulated by thinking about this subject for years. So post them in as clear and concise a manner as you can manage and spare us the histrionics.

And again, I repeat, if at the end of the day you decide that you do NOT want to afford each other the respect I believe you both deserve, then for the love of God put an end to the discussion and go do something else.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 03:41

And, by the way, it goes without saying that the "discussion" is already over. Just please, everyone, keep in mind the above, so that our future attempts at discussion may be more fruitful.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 13:41

NFG sent me a PM which I will reply to in here, because we really need to get this over with if we are ever to do some useful work in this place:

NFG wrote:Posted here 'cause I'm not sure if your "this discussion is over" comment refers to the pixel conversation or the conversation-conversation.

My discussion tactic is typically to hit people with a blunt object then tell them why I did it. "That's foolish logic, and here's why."

As near as I can tell that's what I've done with this recap thing.

As I've said from the very start, I respect recap's decision to love his style of screenshottery, but I am totally convinced the logic he uses to justify the opinion is spurious.

Seems to me I've followed your rules.


I don't even know where to start, man. This is absolutely tragic.


First off, it is a fact that you went out of your way to insult him repeatedly in your posts. I can quote at the very least a dozen barbs/direct insults. AT THE VERY LEAST.

Now whether these barbs/insults were meant as jokes is irrelevant, because the important thing is how they were taken. This is why joking around with strangers on the internet is foolish -- because you can never be sure how they will take your "jokes".

And why should Recap, or anyone else in this forum, keep talking to you in a rational manner if you are calling them silly and telling them that they are full of crap?

You like to hit people with blunt objects and then tell them that their logic is foolish?

Well, I have news for you, man: your discussion tactics are retarded and YOUR logic is foolish. Recap made a number of perfectly valid points which you clearly did not understand, did not bother to ask for clarification, and went on to dismiss in the most offhand manner you could possibly muster. He was wrong to respond with incoherent shouts of "horseshit", he should have instead simply posted 'This discussion is now over" and walked out, but under the circumstances you can't quite blame him.

And again I repeat, it is not clear to anyone here but you that Recap's views on the subject are silly, and that his arguments are without merit. Is it really that hard for you to respond in a rational, respectful manner? Do you absolutely HAVE to insult the other person's intelligence when you are discussing something with them? I mean, look, here is one of your posts:

NFG wrote:1. You're full of crap, recap.

2. Our definitions of pixel art seem to differ. I wrote a book on pixel art, and the images in it are no less pixel art because they don't meet your standard for display.

When I moved to Australia I looked for two months to find the best wide flatscreen TV available. And do you know what the salesman thought when I demanded a CRT with RGB inputs? He thought I was completely loopy.

I know the value of scanlines and a real CRT. I also know you're full of crap.

But it's a good crap. Your mind is defective but your heart's in the right place. Cheers.


Totally unacceptable, and if it was coming from anyone other than you I'd have immediately IP banned him, but look how easy it is to say the EXACT SAME THINGS without sending the other person into a murderous rage of seething hatred:


NFG wrote:I am sorry Recap, but I disagree. Our definitions of pixel art seem to differ. I wrote a book on pixel art, and the images in it are no less pixel art because they don't meet your standard for display.

When I moved to Australia I looked for two months to find the best wide flatscreen TV available. And do you know what the salesman thought when I demanded a CRT with RGB inputs? He thought I was completely loopy.

So I know the value of scanlines and a real CRT.


And again we come back to the issue of respect. Having discussions with people you do not respect is a waste of time, because you have nothing to gain by them. Recap's conclusions are based on a deep knowledge of the subject, as are yours, and he arrived at them after a lot of reflection, as did you. For that fact alone your arguments and his both deserve to be given serious consideration, and both you and he deserve to be respected. Me, Macaw and Josh understand this, and that's why we never called either of you stupid, nor your arguments foolish. Now if the two of you are not prepared to afford the same amount of respect to each other that we afford you, then you will please do me a favor and stop replying to each other's posts altogether.

Also:

NFG wrote:Seems to me I've followed your rules.


These are not my rules -- these are the rules of conversation. Once the first personal insult is introduced in a discussion, the discussion is over. Everything else after that point is horseshitting.
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Unread postby NFG » 10 Jan 2008 14:29

Sorry icy.

I'm on my third draft of this reply 'cause I can't decide if I should just shut up and look the fool, or drag it out and prove it.

I'll boil it down to one sentence: After re-reading the whole 4-page saga, Recap's offered little but opinions and colourful language, no facts whatsoever beyond "CRTs are best for playing, so all screenshots should look like CRTs."

Well ok, one more: My preferred conversational tactics aside, I stand by my words: I've offered facts, technical details and explanations, and concessions (and ok, some colourful language of my own).

Ah screw it, here's the long version:

Sorry icy. I treat all conversations with all people as if they're old friends. We rub our knuckles on each others heads, get hot under the collar, scream and yell, and we pull out the facts to back up our arguments.

I don't think I crossed any lines of behaviour, I thinkI misjudged the abilities of my fellow forum regulars to take some friendly abuse.

1. You're full of crap, recap.

[...]

But it's a good crap. Your mind is defective but your heart's in the right place. Cheers.

How the hell does that last line not negate the first? Is this a language problem? How is it not plainly obvious that I'm saying these things in a good natured manner?

it is not clear to anyone here but you that Recap's views on the subject are silly, and that his arguments are without merit. Is it really that hard for you to respond in a rational, respectful manner?

I DID! I came up with reason after reason for Recap's logic to be proven wrong. I said that I agreed his methods had merit, but that his reasoning for thinking it was superior to mine were spurious. I came up with several reasons for this, and what more can i do?

Recaps rebuttals were limited to things like "This screenshot speaks for itself" when in fact it did nothing of the sort. It was only clear what he meant when I did what you suggested - I asked for clarification (or at least admitted I had no idea what he meant).

I hereby submit that recap offered no technical merits for his logic process beyond "Capcom wanted it this way!" and "CRTs are best!" I've re-read the whole damned thread and I can't find any facts, just opinions. We all agree CRTs are best for gaming, but all he's said this entire time is "CRTs are best for gaming so all screenshots should look like CRTs."

That's not logical. There's no connection between the first concept and the conclusion.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 15:07

Let me know when you are done editing your post so I can respond.
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Unread postby NFG » 10 Jan 2008 15:14

Yeah, quite finished. Knock yourself out.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 15:33

NFG wrote:I'll boil it down to one sentence: After re-reading the whole 4-page saga, Recap's offered little but opinions and colourful language, no facts whatsoever beyond "CRTs are best for playing, so all screenshots should look like CRTs."


Even if this is true, that still does not give you the right to insult him either directly or indirectly. It only gives you the right to say:

Recap's offered little but opinions and colourful language, no facts whatsoever beyond "CRTs are best for playing, so all screenshots should look like CRTs."


So say that and spare us the insults.

NFG wrote:My preferred conversational tactics aside, I stand by my words: I've offered facts, technical details and explanations, and concessions (and ok, some colourful language of my own).


Your preferred conversational tactics are disrespectful to the person you are conversing with. So please change them -- at least in this forum.

NFG wrote:I treat all conversations with all people as if they're old friends.


Where exactly is the sense in that? Recap is not your old friend, and now he will never become one. Congratulations.

NFG wrote:I don't think I crossed any lines of behaviour, I think misjudged the abilities of my fellow forum regulars to take some friendly abuse.


The abuse might have started out "friendly", but it quickly degenerated into downright unfriendliness. Which, incidentally, is what always happens when the people involved are not old friends. And since you have no old friends in this forum, it would be wise to stick to the time-honored rules of conversation between strangers.

NFG wrote:
NFG wrote:1. You're full of crap, recap.

[...]

But it's a good crap. Your mind is defective but your heart's in the right place. Cheers.

How the hell does that last line not negate the first? Is this a language problem? How is it not plainly obvious that I'm saying these things in a good natured manner?


You've got to be fucking kidding me. You just have to be fucking kidding me. The last line "negates" the first one? For fuck's sakes man, the last line is MUCH WORSE than the first one! His mind is defective? You are saying to a complete and total stranger -- a stranger, I might add, who, much like me, has a reputation for not taking any shit from anyone -- that his "mind is defective" and you expect him NOT to start swearing at you? You expect him to take you seriously and respond with elaborate, well-reasoned arguments?

Unbelievable. Un-be-fucking-lievable.

NFG wrote:I DID! I came up with reason after reason for Recap's logic to be proven wrong. I said that I agreed his methods had merit, but that his reasoning for thinking it was superior to mine were spurious. I came up with several reasons for this, and what more can i do?


You can remove ALL insults from your posts. Beyond that, nothing. Mission accomplished. That's what a discussion is all about.


NFG wrote:Recaps rebuttals were limited to things like "This screenshot speaks for itself" when in fact it did nothing of the sort. It was only clear what he meant when I did what you suggested - I asked for clarification (or at least admitted I had no idea what he meant).


Great, you did exactly what you should have done. If only your posts had included no direct or indirect insults whatsoever, then the situation would not have gotten out of hand and we would still probably be discussing pixels and not all this bullshit.

NFG wrote:I hereby submit that recap offered no technical merits for his logic process beyond "Capcom wanted it this way!" and "CRTs are best!" I've re-read the whole damned thread and I can't find any facts, just opinions. We all agree CRTs are best for gaming, but all he's said this entire time is "CRTs are best for gaming so all screenshots should look like CRTs."


This is exactly what you should have posted before leaving the discussion for good.

NFG wrote:That's not logical. There's no connection between the first concept and the conclusion.


I've already explained why I think this is logical, and why there is a direct connection between the first concept and the conclusion. If you want me to I can try to explain it again. Just say the word.
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Unread postby NFG » 10 Jan 2008 15:54

Your preferred conversational tactics are disrespectful to the person you are conversing with. So please change them -- at least in this forum.

Fair enough.

The last line "negates" the first one? For fuck's sakes man, the last line is MUCH WORSE than the first one!

Uh... OK?

before leaving the discussion for good.
I tried to leave the conversation on the second page and you chastised me for it. =P

I've already explained why I think this is logical, and why there is a direct connection between the first concept and the conclusion. If you want me to I can try to explain it again. Just say the word.

Word. I'll pre-empt you: You cannot accurately replicate the CRT appearance on an LCD. You can't replicate the phosphor dots, dot pitch, or contrast. It's not possible to take a superior display and show off its features on an inferior display. It can not be done.

Now, please tell me why it's a good idea to try.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 16:13

NFG wrote:I tried to leave the conversation on the first page and you chastised me for it. =P


I do not recall this. Link the post(s) you are referring to and I will explain why I said whatever it is that I said.



NFG wrote:You cannot accurately replicate the CRT appearance on an LCD.


I understand this. I did read the post where you explained this, and I see what you are saying.

However, I still think that trying to get as close as possible is worthwhile. Recap's screenshots get as close as possible without going as far as to do this, which is very difficult, expensive, and time-consuming, and hence not an option for me at this point.

NFG wrote:You can't replicate the phosphor dots, dot pitch, or contrast. It's not possible to take a superior display and show off its features on an inferior display. It can not be done.


That picture I linked you gets pretty damn close to the real thing, as far as I am concerned. It's not replicating everything, but it's very close to what I see with my own eyes when I am looking at the real thing.

NFG wrote:Now, please tell me why it's a good idea to try.


I'll put it to you in terms I am sure you will understand. It is a good idea to try because it can save people like me a whole fortune. I paid close to 1,000USD for the PCB of Mushihime-sama, and 300USD for the PCB of Ibara, even though there are perfectly cheap PS2 ports for both of them. Why I did that? Because the ports have no low-res options in them. The Espgaluda and DDP DOJ ports are displayed in perfect low-res, and hence I have no reason to spend my hard-earned cash to buy the expensive PCBs, but the Mushihime-sama and Ibara ports -- which came later -- do not.

And why is that? How hard can it be to include a fucking option in a fucking menu to turn off the fucking interlacing and the fucking filters? Why should I be forced to buy the ridiculously expensive PCBs in order to see the damn artwork they way their designers meant for them to be seen?

So this is why it's worthwhile to try to get as close to the real thing as we possibly can. In order to save money. In order to educate the masses, and make them more demanding. So that if and when ports of Deathsmiles and Espgaluda II and Pink Sweets and all the other Cave games come out, they can include a fucking option in a fucking menu so that I don't have to buy the fucking PCBs.
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Unread postby NFG » 10 Jan 2008 22:38

I absolutely agree with you: Real PCBs are better than emulation and ports, in almost all ways. I'd prefer the pause button, 'cause sometimes the real world intrudes, but I've got two boxes full of PCBs because we agree on this point.

What I don't see, and what you're so far failing to make clear, is why the glorious nature of the authentic experience should be used for critical analysis and review. Why should I make sprites look like they're on a CRT? Is it because that's how they look "in the wild"?

In which case I have to say "crap" again! When I'm out taking photographs of insects I don't hear people telling me the results are shitty because I've used artificial lights and macro lenses to make the insect larger and clearer than he appears in real life.

We're not talking about PLAYING here, we're talking about something completely different. So I really have to say, I still don't see the connection you apparently think is so obvious.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Jan 2008 23:01

NFG wrote:I absolutely agree with you: Real PCBs are better than emulation and ports, in almost all ways.


See, I never said that. You really need to pay a bit more attention to what I am saying.

I am saying that I PREFER ports, as long as they give me the option to see the game as its designer intended it to be seen. I am perfectly happy with my ports of Espgaluda and DDP DOJ. I am not happy with the ports of Mushihime-sama and Ibara. Nor am I happy with the VC and XBLA ports, or with the vast majority of compilations of older games that get released on newer systems.

NFG wrote:What I don't see, and what you're so far failing to make clear, is why the glorious nature of the authentic experience should be used for critical analysis and review.


I do not understand your question. The text of the review has nothing to do with the screenshots.

NFG wrote:Why should I make sprites look like they're on a CRT?


Fuck sprites. I am not discussing sprites here, I am discussing games. And haven't you already agreed a dozen times that these games look better on a CRT? Didn't I just explain to you that the only reason I had to pay 1300USD is because the ports of Mushihime-sama and Ibara are directed to idiots who can't tell the difference between LCDs and CRTs?

We are trying to post screenshots that come as close to reality as possible. To the reality of the ideal playing experience! I mean what else should we be trying to do? Hook up our PCBs to Virtual Boys and take screenshots of that? What type of screenshot would you have me use? if not the ideal kind, then perhaps the worst kind?

It has to be one or the other. I've always had a distaste for mediocrity.

NFG wrote:In which case I have to say "crap" again! When I'm out taking photographs of insects I don't hear people telling me the results are shitty because I've used artificial lights and macro lenses to make the insect larger and clearer than he appears in real life.


I don't really have an interest in insect photography, so I cannot really comment on this.

NFG wrote:We're not talking about PLAYING here, we're talking about something completely different.


Indeed that is exactly what we are talking about here. About playing, and about the ideal way to play these games. That is the only thing I am interested in.
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Unread postby NFG » 11 Jan 2008 00:02

Indeed that is exactly what we are talking about here. About playing, and about the ideal way to play these games.

Um, what? This whole argument was about the best way to present sprites and screenshots!! Even the title of this thread is about that.

I do not understand your question. The text of the review has nothing to do with the screenshots.

Why does the fact that CRTs are better for displaying real games mean that it is valuable to use screenshots and sprites that look like they are photos of a CRT screen, when the real benefits of the CRT cannot be duplicated on an LCD? Make that connection for me, please, 'cause that seems to be your position and it's not clear to me why you think this.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 Jan 2008 00:15

NFG wrote:Um, what? This whole argument was about the best way to present sprites and screenshots!! Even the title of this thread is about that.


NFG, I do not care what the thread's title is. I can change it for you if you want. The discussion you have been having with me is about screenshots. So don't bother me with sprites -- sprites are between you and Recap, and as far as I am concerned you can do whatever you want with them.

NFG wrote:Why does the fact that CRTs are better for displaying real games mean that it is valuable to use screenshots and sprites that look like they are photos of a CRT screen, when the real benefits of the CRT cannot be duplicated on an LCD?


It is at this point that I quit the discussion. I have answered this question at least once, and perhaps even twice, in this very thread.

http://forum.insomnia.ac/viewtopic.php?p=4218#4218
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Unread postby NFG » 11 Jan 2008 00:52

If this is your idea of a good screenshot then I'm afraid we're never ever going to agree.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Jan 2008 18:28

Why are you afraid? What is there to be afraid of? The point of a discussion is for the participants to exchange viewpoints. As long as they manage to accomplish this without the conversation descending into childish bickering (see previous posts in this thread), then the enterprise has been a resounding success. In fact, I'll go even further and claim that if you find a group of people who always manage to reach an agreement at the end of every discussion, then they are a bunch of complete morons.

The only time that the point of a discussion is to reach an agreement is when there is something at stake. But since we are not married, and since we don't have to divide the family fortune or some shit, all our discussions are purely academic.

So what I am saying is that there's no point for bickering, sarcasm, ridiculing each other's opinions, or any of that other retarded shit that goes on at IC/SB/NeoGAF/lamefqs et al. Now let's get some work done in here.
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