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[PS3] Demon's Souls

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[PS3] Demon's Souls

Unread postby Heell » 06 Sep 2012 11:55

Note: Demon’s Souls is a stat-heavy action game and will be reviewed as such.

In Demon’s Souls you create a character by choosing his class and appearance and then enter a dark medieval world where you must kill all the demons and free yourself and the mortals inhabiting it. The story feels like it was made long after the game, just to have something to accompany it. There is nothing going on and the few characters you meet offer just a few lines of text, to inform you who they are and what they’re doing. The surroundings and the atmosphere of the game though is truly great. Most people are depressed and have lost all hope, the Maiden in Black, who is the main NPC who will help you in the game has a hypnotizing voice, while using archaic grammar and speaking in meter, there are background sounds in each level like hammers, howls and growls and the background music, in its simple yet beautiful rhythms, never fails to add another layer to your sense of fear. Visually, the game uses tones of grey, brown and black in most areas, and when other colors are used, they are at their darker variants. The enemies vary from simple zombies to powerful knights and from mindflayers to flying mantas and literally everyone has a chance of killing you, at least through the first half of the game. All these factors make you believe that whatever you do, you won’t manage to save anyone, that you are really weak and unimportant; in this game you have to become a hero, you are not meant to be.

The Nexus is the central hub of the game and it connects to the five worlds you can go to: the castle, the mine, the prison, the cliffs and the swamp, each of them being very different from the others, except for the same dark atmosphere. Each level has four levels, except for the castle which has five, and at the end of each level there is a boss. In the Nexus there are NPCs who can teach you spells, sell you things, upgrade you weapons, stash your items and the Maiden in Black who can help you level up. You have eight stats (Vitality, Intelligence, Endurance, Strength, Dexterity, Magic, Faith, Luck) and each time you get a level, you choose one and it goes up by one point. You can improve your Strength so that you can hold a stronger weapon or shield more efficiently, or your Intelligence so that you can have more spells and so on and so forth.

As Alex has explained in his essay, this does not make the game an RPG. And indeed, Demon’s Souls is a great example of his point: if the screen with all the stats and numbers was not in the game, and each time you went to the Maiden in Black with enough points to get a level she would grant you a wish, for example “Make me stronger”, I’m pretty sure that no one would label it as action-RPG. All the calculations could be left exactly the same, but the appearance or not of one image with some numbers would define the genre of the game in most people’s minds! The only role-playing element Demon’s Souls has is that you can choose to kill everyone (except for the Maiden… if you try, she apologizes politely: “I’m sorry… I cannot die.”) but this is not done in the Deus Ex way, integrating a character’s death into the plot, because there is no plot in the game. If you kill the merchant, you can’t buy from him, if you kill the mage you can’t learn spells and keep in mind that this is irreversible, as Demon’s Souls saves your game in real time. This, however, can be a problem because if you hit someone hard enough, he will turn hostile for the rest of the game stopping all interactions with him.

Demon’s Souls is considered very difficult and unforgiving. This, however, is not true and it comes from people who have not understood how the game should be played. It is neither a fast-paced action game like Bayonetta, where you want to fight a lot of opponents at once, to feel that adrenaline rush when dodging away from one and counterattacking after you finish your dodge, nor a piss-easy JRPG like Final Fantasy XIII where you can finish your battles by pressing the same two or three buttons in the same order for all the game. It requires you to be methodical and manage your resources carefully, but as soon as you realize that (and it shouldn’t take you more than ten minutes and a few deaths, really), you shouldn’t have a big problem clearing the game. You don’t want to fight more than two monsters at once because regardless of your level or equipment, they can tear you apart quickly. You don’t want to walk on a narrow corridor without having your shield raised at all times. Do not use all your firebombs before trying to defeat your enemy in other, less item-consuming, ways; you may need them later in more dire situations.

Your character has four basic moves. You can attack, make a strong attack, block or dodge. Each of these uses some of you stamina bar and you can very quickly run out of it, so you can’t just mash the attack button to defeat an enemy. You have to find openings, dodge or block, move away, wait for your stamina bar to refill, then strike again. There are other moves too you can use, after you become familiar with the basic stuff. When you use spells, you don’t lose stamina but you lose magic points, which do not regenerate. The controls are good and you become familiar with them easily. However the inventory management is not that good. You choose five consumable items which you can browse at any time with the up button of the D-pad, so if you skip the one you want, you have to press the up button four more times and this is harder than it sounds when done under pressure. When you ask me to do things like use potions in real time, I need an efficient way to do it with one or two clicks, not by searching a small list. Additionally, there are many things left out. You can’t jump, you can’t climb and the environment in Demon’s Souls could certainly be explored in these ways. It feels awkward, seeing an edge which you could grab with a jump, only to realize that you have to go all the way around to get there. Another problem is that there will be some cheap deaths because you fell from a height. Fighting monsters in high places (especially in narrow high places) is pretty difficult and you can easily fall when your enemy blocks and the recoil sends you back.

In Demon’s Souls, you start in Body Form. That means you have all of your lifebar and the range at which monsters become aware of your presence and attack you is bigger. When you kill an enemy, you get Souls which are the currency of the game: you can use them to buy things, upgrade weapons and to level up. If you die, you lose all of your Souls, but a bloodstain is left in the place you died. Additionally, you stop being in Body Form and become a Soul. In Soul Form your lifebar is cut to half, but the enemies’ range of detection is smaller. There are few ways in the game to get back your body, one of them being defeating the boss of each stage. After you die, you start the stage at the beginning and all the enemies you had killed respawn. If you get to your bloodstain before you die again, you get back your lost Souls, but if you don’t, the old bloodstain (and your Souls) disappear forever and a new one appears in your new place of death. And this is what frustrated people: if you always lose at a certain point in a stage, but always manage to get there, you have collected a lot of souls, but if the next time you try to get there you fail, all of them dissapear. What I did is never care at all about how many Souls I had. When I finished a stage, I got back at the Nexus and used up all my Souls and that was all. I never needed to farm (except for once, for five minutes or so, because I was a mage and I had no potions for restoring magic because of a bad calculation) and that is the beauty of the game. If you want, it is possible to finish the game without ever leveling up. Most of the times, you just have to think of a clever way to defeat a troublesome opponent, maybe change your weapon from a blunt one to a sharp, or use your bow or just pass by him until you become stronger and can defeat him.

In the levels you might find a lever that opens a door, or clear a blocked way so that when you start again from the beginning you can take this shortcut. These shortcuts are hidden, but not very well: everyone could guess that if you are on top of the castle and you need to go through the west tower to continue, and there is an east tower, and when you where at the bottom of the castle the door to the east tower was locked, if you go now to the east tower, you’ll probably unlock that door. In the later stages however there are some more hidden or dangerous ones. For example in one stage the lever is very close to the boss, but if you go and try to use it you might die, and so you might miss the chance to fight the boss which you could defeat and not need the lever at all, presenting you with a risk vs reward situation.

The bosses are generally not that difficult, and I killed most of them on my first try, one on my third and the rest on my second. This is mainly because they’re patterns are very predictable and when they have weak spots, they are pretty obvious. They are pretty cool though, and you will always be on guard against them, because if you take two hits you lose, and if you lose, you have to make all your way back from the beginning of the stage. There is almost always a hard and an easy way to defeat them, so again the game asks for your creativity. A good idea is to be an all-around character, knowing some spells and having a variety of weapons, so that you have many ways to deal with a situation. Keep in mind that you can’t pause the game in Demon’s Souls, so you have to be careful at all times.

When you do certain actions in a level, like dying when you are in Body Form or killing a boss, you shift that World’s Tendency. That means that the level becomes darker or lighter, with a few changes each time. As the Tendency moves to the dark side, the monsters become stronger and give you more Souls and valuable items when you kill them, while some powerful special enemies might appear. As the Tendency moves to the light side, the monsters become weaker and give you less Souls and less valuable items. At each side, some special events occur that give you access to unique weapons and items.

The online part of the game sucks. First of all, whoever wants can leave a message which is presented as some red letters on the floor. When you write a message you use a number of preset words and sentences. When you read one, you can recommend it and if you do, the message will stay there longer and its writer will be healed. There are basically two types of messages left: either helpful messages informing you of an upcoming danger or a message of someone that asks for recommendation, so that they can be healed. All these red stains destroy the atmosphere of the game, not only because they feel outside of the world, but also because even seeing them can make you beware of what lies ahead. Not to mention that there are places where there may be two or more messages, making the floor much more red than it should be. Demon’s Souls makes you feel very alone, you meet very few people outside the Nexus, but all those stains make it feel much more lively. You can also find the bloodstains of other players and use them to watch a replay of their death. Now, if instead of the same bloodstain for everyone, it was their dead character you saw and if the number of dead characters was set to three per level and if there was nothing out of the ordinary about their bodies to inform you that “this is a dead body of a player, you can come here and press X and see how they died” that would be a cool feature. But this way you just see the same pool of blood here and there which feels, at best, awkward. The only nice thing when playing online, is that you can sometimes catch glimpses of other players as ghosts, when they are near you and even this is more frequent than it should be.

When you actually interact with other players, you can either form a team or fight against each other. There is no voice chat in the game and the communication can only be done by messages or with emotes, which are certain actions done when holding the X button and moving the controller in a direction. When you team up, the players (three at most) play the same level, which makes things a lot easier, especially if one of them has played the level before. There is a level restriction, so you can team up only with someone at about your level. Also, only the host progresses the game, the other players just get Souls and their bodies back if they defeat the boss. If no player has played the level, I suppose it could be nice to do it once or twice, but otherwise it’s just stupid. I mean, instead of you playing the game, there is someone who knows exactly what is to be done and he is playing the game for you! At the same time you could be on youtube watching a video walkthrough and there would practically be no difference. When a player wants to fight, if he is in Soul Form, he can invade a player who is in Body Form. This can only be done if the invader is of lower level and because you rarely have a Body Form, it will happen very few times. It can certainly be harsh if you have just gone through a difficult part and someone invades to kill you, but it adds to the excitement, trying to kill that annoying dude who thought you would be easy prey.

After you complete the game, you can replay it with the same character, keeping all non-key items, in what is supposed to be a more difficult mode. The difficulty is supposed to rise for the first seven times you complete the game. The enemies are stronger, but you are stronger too and you know what to do. You don’t have to waste time searching for anything, you know the patterns of the bosses and all this makes the second time through the game feel easier than the first. I rushed the game two more times after the first one, and I’m sure that it would be more difficult if I had started a new game with a new character.

To summarize, Demon’s Souls is a very good designed game, better played offline, with a great dark world to explore and a lot of worthy enemies to kill. The atmosphere is very good and it is refreshing to see a new game in this genre which doesn’t give you anything for free, but challenges you all the time. You will never feel overpowered, but you should never feel underpowered too, if you are careful and methodical. If it wasn’t for the easy boss fights, the lack of jumping and climbing, the few cheap deaths and mediocre inventory management, it would be an excellent game. All those details do manage to get a star off the rating, but nevertheless Demon’s Souls is a great game which actually feels like an adventure at most times.

****
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Unread postby icycalm » 29 Sep 2012 06:06

Okay, I finally got around to reading this review. Initially I had got a bad impression of it because I skimmed it, and, seeing as you don't seem to be acquainted with the dungeon crawling genre very much (if at all), and especially the action kind, I dismissed it as not "expert" enough to consider publishing it. You see, Demons's Souls is supposed to be this amazing obscure hit or whatever, but none of the commentary I've come across on this game seems to realize that it belongs to a genre that goes all the way back to goddamn 1987:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_(video_game)

On top of that, From Software itself has released several games in the past (at least the 4 King's Field games, and maybe even the two Shadow Tower titles) which are the heritage on which Demons' Souls draws -- and which you obviously haven't played, and probably haven't even heard about.

So this is the problem. The main question that I would expect, and want, to see answered in a Demons' Souls review -- how this game fits into the continuum of its genre in general, and that of its developer's history in particular -- is not even raised here, let alone answered.

Nevertheless, after carefully reading your review, I can see that you've done a damn fine job of conveying the way the game feels and functions -- and in the process made me curious enough and excited enough to want to try it for myself -- and when it comes to someone like me this is quite an accomplishment. Moreover you have done this without the slightest hint of unjustified gushing or vague, ignorant generalizations with which all the other reviews I've seen seem to be flooded, so again mad props to you for accomplishing this.

So I am going to publish the review as is (while fixing some awkward diction, etc. of course), and simply wait either until I play the game myself, or until someone comes along who is more familiar with the genre than you (and hopefully even with From's previous related works), and tells us all about the connections in the Demons' Souls thread -- at which point we will see if an entirely new review is needed, or if we can simply fine-tune this one by inserting in it a few sentences or paragraphs at some point. But for the time being I think your look into the game is worthwhile and helpful enough to go on the frontpage as it is.
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Unread postby icycalm » 29 Sep 2012 06:07

And here are some links to get you, or anyone else who's interested, started on Demons' Souls pedigree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_(series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Tower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Tower_Abyss
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Unread postby Heell » 29 Sep 2012 11:41

Thanks a lot for your feedback! And thanks for your information about the genre too. I certainly didn't know that there was an action dungeon crawler out in 1987! I'll try to play some of the other From Software games.
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Unread postby Lord Knight » 29 Sep 2012 16:53

I'm guessing Heell was not aware of this post, considering it's buried inside a thread about a Castlevania game:

http://culture.vg/forum/topic?p=9058#p9058

icycalm wrote:Games that include ANY form of grinding whatsoever, even a single hidden spot, should get 0 stars immediately, regardless of how awesome everything else may be: atmosphere, graphics, sound, level design, whatever -- nothing can compensate for robbing the challenge from a game and turning it into an exercise in logistics.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrE0KNWFkRw

Granted, grinding in this game doesn't nullify the challenge COMPLETELY, but it does make it easier and gives your character access to more tools and strategies -- some of which are simply more effective. (And dying after the 3rd hit instead of the 2nd is always noticeable.)

It also pissed me off how imbalanced the bosses were. There are 5 worlds and each world has several stages which you must do in order. The hardest bosses in the game in my opinion were the ones in 2-2 and 3-3 (world-stage) and the final world bosses that came after them were very easy.
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Unread postby icycalm » 29 Sep 2012 21:26

Practically all stat-heavy games feature grinding in one form or another. It is extremely difficult to completely eliminate it. That comment you quoted is not a policy of this site -- it is a hypothetical scare tactic I would use if Insomnia was read by all the world's game developers to force them to avoid including grinding in their games. It would work of course, but it would be an unfair tactic, because a game that includes grinding by no means becomes utterly worthless (which is what 0 stars signify) because of it. Hell, man, DMC and Ninja Gaiden include grinding -- are they worth zero stars because of it? Just don't grind if you don't want to. Of course I DID grind when I played them (or at least DMC -- I didn't grind in NG), because I couldn't resist it, and of course if they had been made without grinding they would have been even better games than what they are, and I would have had even more fun with them -- but that by no means renders them worthless.

I also have a few more comments to make on Heell's review, but I'll make those later.
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Unread postby Lord Knight » 30 Sep 2012 02:04

That's true, but back in the day when I played DMC I never felt like it "has grinding" because it only provided you with earlier access to moves and a bit of extra health, which were not things that made a big difference in combat effectiveness, just added some spice to it.

But Demon's Souls felt different. The combination of somewhat ruthless difficulty and JUST KNOWING that the game is stat-heavy with a grind option available can drive you insane! You keep asking yourself "Is this even beatable by my character? Am I supposed to try harder or maybe this is how the game hints to me to go grind?" and again consider what I said -- that the mid-boss was the hardest in the game and what's after it was easier, but you only realize it's a local balance problem AFTER you had already defeated the mid-boss.

Such a problem would never happen in a pure action game with fixed stats, since you can at least be sure that every time you lose, it's you and not the character. So yeah, the game should get credit for what it does well, which is a lot, but for me the above combination of factors is an annoying design problem that I felt like I should mention here.
Last edited by Lord Knight on 30 Sep 2012 02:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Sep 2012 02:37

Lord Knight wrote:Such a problem would never happen in a pure action game with fixed stats, since you can at least be sure that every time you lose, it's you and not the character.


And leaves grow on trees, dude. We are supposed to be providing expert commentary, not boring the reader with stating the obvious as if it's some kind of revelation. All you fucking noobs just jumped into the dungeon crawling genre because of the insane hype around this game, and your "profound revelations" are basically the ESSENCE of the genre and goes without saying for anyone not born yesterday. I mean duh:

Lord Knight wrote:"Is this even beatable by my character? Am I supposed to try harder or maybe this is how the game hints to me to go grind?


That's how every dungeon crawler has worked since the '70s dude, only without the silly rationalization. The game "hinting" for you to go "grind", lol. "Grinding" is never an issue in dungeon crawlers, since it is the ESSENCE of the genre. And this is why it doesn't feel like grinding. I don't even think I can explain it to you. You either go play 20 of these games until you get it, or you don't and you don't.

Lord Knight wrote:So yeah, the game should get credit for what it does well, which is a lot, but for me the above combination of factors is an annoying design problem that I felt like I should mention here.


Your "combination of factors" seems to be your inexperience with the genre. Imagine someone complaining that there's no regenerating mechanic a la Halo in fighting games, or no co-op campaign or something, and you'll get an idea of how silly your complaints sound. There is always the chance that Demons' Souls has some crappy implementation of some key dungeon crawling mechanic, but even if this were true you'd be incapable to communicate it to anyone because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. So please. If you know fuck all about a genre stop clogging up the threads in here with naive theorizing and go become familiar with it before you post. I mention this in the posting guidelines of this subforum. If Demons' Souls is your first dungeon crawler -- as it clearly is -- what on earth made you think you'd have anything to contribute here?

Don't answer this. Just go play 20 dungeon crawlers and then come back if you still feel you have something to say here.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Sep 2012 05:05

Here, I'll try to be a bit nicer and offer some explanation.

Turn-based dungeon crawlers are essentially about logistics. Grinding is all there is to them, because that's what logistics is. The entire point of it is to maximize the efficiency of your logistical operations (i.e. XP gain and stat-increase in all your characters) so as to finish the game as quickly as possible. To bemoan the existence of grinding in such games therefore simply doesn't make any sense.

Real-time dungeon crawlers (like the Souls games) are essentially the same, only there's a bit of an action angle involved -- but as Renegade sort of explained in his Mass Effect review, this action aspect should not be held to the same standards as a pure action game, because the stat-building shenanigans essentially affect the controls.

All of this has nothing to do with my comments on the new 2D Castlevania games, because, in contrast to dungeon crawlers, the very idea of stat-heavy side-scrollers is flawed. Don't ask me why -- it has to do with the fact that side-scrollers are extremely low immersion games while dungeon crawlers are far more immersive. The point is that there do not really exist any awesome stat-heavy side-scrollers, despite the efforts of many devs, hence the genre itself is flawed. Even a merely decent pure side-scroller will wipe the floor with even the best stat-heavy one every day of the week.

So this is the long and the short of it about these genres in which you do not appear to know much, if anything at all. But it is not possible for you to learn and understand much just by READING the above. You'll end up like the Ghetto moron or the kebab kids or the googlers: with a lot of confusing explanations in your head and no real intuitive knowledge of what they refer to -- and when the time comes for you to express an opinion on something, you'll end up being full of shit.

You simply HAVE to play the goddamn games -- and a shitload of them -- in order to be able to have anything to say about them, and to glean the maximum amount of insight from my explanations. And that's all I had to say about that.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Sep 2012 05:24

I mean take a look at this again, now that you have the above quick primer on the genre:

Lord Knight wrote:"Is this even beatable by my character? Am I supposed to try harder or maybe this is how the game hints to me to go grind?"


This is precisely the joy of these games! You have this completely hostile environment, packed to the brim with horrible creatures that are out for your blood, and you want to explore it and uncover its secrets, all the while fretting about whether you are ready to take the next step, and how big you should make it. And I mean, there's nothing unnatural or anti-immersive about this. "Grinding" here is precisely what creates the immersion! When I was making my entry into competitive kickboxing I posed this sort of question to myself almost every week. "Am I ready to take on the next championship, the next opponent, or should I spend a few more months in the gym?" You want to advance, you want to win championships, you want to kick ass -- but you don't want to overshoot yourself and get yourself splattered by being too rash. So the genre is very true to life in this respect! and if I have any objection to the traditional dungeon crawling genres it's that this danger of being "splattered for good" does not exist, because of the saving/reloading feature -- but that's where roguelikes come in (yet another genre for you to go out and discover!) And if I have any objection about roguelikes it's that they have remained aesthetically primitive while all the aesthetic advances have been lavished on the mechanically inferior save/loading varieties.

Hence the ultimate game in this genre would be a Souls game with permadeath, combining the superior aesthetics of modern dungeon crawlers with the superior mechanics of roguelikes. But no one's gonna spend that kind of money to make a game that only I and 20 other people will play, so we are back to playing both genres seperately and trying to combine their effect in our heads, lol. So yeah. Dungeon Crawling 101, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood icycalm.
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Unread postby Lord Knight » 30 Sep 2012 10:32

I'll make sure to play more dungeon crawlers at some point! Probably in the future when hopefully more of them will have awesome environments like in Demon's Souls, because I couldn't stand looking at the ugly and repetitive hallways of games like Sekaiju no Meikyuu/Etrian Odyssey.

But for now, your posts did connect many dots regarding Demon's Souls specifically. Now I can see the logic behind some of the stages, where they put this big, menacing enemy in the middle of the road that is way out of your league when you first reach there. Unlike usual video game logic, you are supposed to sneak around this enemy for now and tackle him much later or not at all, but you can't know that for sure unless you decide to take a shot, die and lose all the progress you have made so far. The fact that when connected to the internet, you can also catch a glimpse of another human player rushing him and getting killed, only enhances this moment of uncertainty.

I ordered Dark Souls two weeks ago anyway so I intend to play it with a fresh start in my mind and without prior expectations that are based on different types of games. I'm sure this won't surprise you, but most of the gamers on the internet are playing the series with the help of online guides, forums and youtube videos. This is kinda like "credit-feeding through arcade games" in a new form, so you are correct when you say that most of the people who bought the Souls games don't "get it" and butcher the experience.
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Unread postby icycalm » 07 Oct 2012 01:19

Lord Knight wrote:But for now, your posts did connect many dots regarding Demon's Souls specifically. Now I can see the logic behind some of the stages, where they put this big, menacing enemy in the middle of the road that is way out of your league when you first reach there. Unlike usual video game logic, you are supposed to sneak around this enemy for now and tackle him much later or not at all,


You can see fuck-all. "Usual videogame logic", lol. Says who? Some dude who's only played linear action games. Meanwhile, we've had nonlinear videogames FOR FIVE FUCKING DECADES YOU FUCKING DICKHEAD WEEABOO. "Oh but no, the weeaboo thinks that every enemy must be beatable immediately the moment they appear, in the order they appeared in". He wants his "usual videogame logic" to apply equally to Shinobi, Eye of the Beholder and fucking Civilization. God forbid he actually have to THINK in what way to proceed and in what order to tackle the game's challenges in. "OH BUT I MADE A COUPLE OF SMART, INFORMATIVE POSTS ON INSOMNIA. THAT AUTOMATICALLY MAKES ME AN EXPERT IN EVERYTHING, AND I MUST HURRY AND POST IN ALL KINDS OF THREAD LEST THE UNIVERSE BE DEPRIVED OF MY SUDDENLY BUDDING GENIUS." Fucking retard.
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Unread postby icycalm » 07 Oct 2012 01:49

Also love how he's gonna find 20 dungeon crawlers to play when he doesn't like Etrian Odyssey because of the "repetitive hallways" lol.
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