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Unread postby icycalm » 27 Sep 2007 14:54

jackfrozt wrote:Unlike the others, I agree to it 100%


That's the correct opinion to have ;)
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Unread postby icycalm » 15 Nov 2007 03:19

Someone emailed me a link to this Chinese translation of the article, attached to a nine-page thread. Naturally, the Chinese didn't bother linking to the original version:

http://www.tgfcer.com/club/viewthread.php?tid=5918540

What I like is that they even went to the trouble to find the book where I got that Baudrillard quote from. Not so hard with the help of Google, but still.

If anyone speaks Chinese perhaps you could give me the gist of what they are saying. Probably slagging me off, I guess.
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Unread postby JoshF » 15 Nov 2007 05:38

From what I'm read through poor translations they seem to like it, and they're talking about why they think arcades died in China.
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Unread postby loser » 08 Mar 2008 17:58

I stumbled upon the following bit of arcade history in the Wikipedia article on Space Invaders.

Space Invaders became very popular in part due to its new style
of game play. Up until its release, video games were timed to a clock,
and once a player's time was up (plus possible bonus time), the game
ended. With Space Invaders, the game ended only when the player had
exhausted the three allotted "lives" or when the invaders landed on
the bottom of the screen: a person could therefore play for as long as
their skill level allowed.


The following is an excerpt from an interview with the game designer, Tomohiro Nishikado.

I introduced a number of elements that were new in video
games. First, enemies respond to your movement and attack you. Until
Space Invaders came out, most video games involved nearly
non-interactive situations where the player unilaterally attacked the
targets within a set amount of time. In Space Invaders, the enemies
react to the player's movement and attack back. Also, even if the
player has their laser base in stock, the game is over when the
invaders reach your territory. I think these new elements added more
thrills in the game, and gained popularity among young players. In
fact, the game was unpopular among the arcade distributors when it was
first introduced.
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Unread postby icycalm » 08 Mar 2008 18:06

If these quotes have any bearing on the subject under discussion, you'll have to explain to me what that is supposed to be because I can't see it.
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Unread postby loser » 08 Mar 2008 19:10

The quotes explain the birth of gaming where play time is proportional to skill, which is a major point in the article: "Only the skilled may live -- the rest will die." If the post is inappropriate, I apologize for spamming the forum, and please feel free to delete it.
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Unread postby icycalm » 08 Mar 2008 19:23

loser wrote:If the post is inappropriate, I apologize for spamming the forum, and please feel free to delete it.


Don't be touchy, I only asked a question. Posts I find inappropriate are anyway deleted without warning.

loser wrote:The quotes explain the birth of gaming where play time is proportional to skill, which is a major point in the article: "Only the skilled may live -- the rest will die."


Okay, now I see. What I would like to know now, is the titles of some of these pre-Space Invaders games that gave the player a set amount of playing time regardless of skill.

My experience in arcades started sometime after Space Invaders (I was born in '78, which is when Space Invaders was released). I did play Pong at one point, but in a home console version at a friend's house, not at an "arcade" (I use quotation marks because it is my understanding that back then proper arcades did not yet exist).
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Apr 2008 17:18

A poster seen hanging in one Shibuya game room highlights a public-service message from the National Police Agency, which regulates arcades as well as pachinko (a gambling game played with steel marbles) and slot-machine parlors. Over a picture of two smiling youths, it reads, MANY ADULTS CARE FOR YOU. NOW OUR FUTURE IS IN YOUR HANDS. YOU DO NOT BELONG ONLY TO YOURSELF. YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL OF US. Adults want Japanese kids to leave the arcades, go to work and save the country. But they're too busy saving the world, one Gundam battle at a time.


http://www.newsweek.com/id/45620?tid=relatedcl

lol
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Unread postby Strifer » 25 Aug 2008 09:57

I have no idea what the point of that newsweek article was.

I want to say that I joined because of your essay on arcade culture. I agree with the general sentiment present throughout that you should never continue. It's a touchy subject for some, to play just for fun, but some find fun in high-level play. While I understand that many don't want to spend much of their time learning fighting games, not even trying to get better at one of them is ridiculous.

Look at chess. There are certain rules that take about five minute tops to master, but how satisfying it is to play the game on a high-level. On such a level it isn't just about moving your own pieces, it's about moving your opponent's pieces. Most important of all, it's immensely satisfying.

Games are sports. Is chess a sport? No, but that doesn't stop it from being appreciated by many. I've browsed through that selectbutton thread, and one of the arguments there was that sport builds character by going beyond your limits. So is running very fast character-building, but deep-level thinking is not? Going beyond your mental limit, learning more and improving the quality of your thinking is not?

I've been lucky enough to take at least a small part in the arcade culture, so I know how important the social aspect is. I've made a friend during a vacation, and we've then did some co-op enemy clearing and played some snooker. I fondly remember those days. Online play just doesn't cut it. It's because with arcade you make your skill public, and you are judged by it. People want to see impressive feats of domination, and you have direct feedback for your efforts. So I guess LAN parties are like arcades.

I wanted to point out that Wii Fit is a dangerous case of an elephant in the room, but I'd need to give this one some more thought.

Well, anyway, I've been reading your website over the weekend and it gave me something to chew on. Good luck with your book.
Last edited by Strifer on 15 Jan 2009 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby adrenalinq » 27 Aug 2008 12:25

Arcades didn't die - they were murdered! What was the point of the arcades? Community of gamers who came every day to beat the best score and put a monument with three letters. I remember my youth when I came in arcade hall with my friends, got on pool table and cried: "You all suck in MK3 - I will kick any ass, I bet all money I have!". This is what make my nostalgia so damn great.

This spirit was killed by lazy arcade halls holders who didn't want to support community by tournaments, global leaderboards. One day all the hardcore were gone and the spirit of competition was over.

Making a perfect balance between itch to throw joypad into the screen and making a new plan to kill overwhelming wave of demons in 30th time is what makes old arcade games so great. The Multibutton Bandit just took your money, killed you in 2 minutes but left a light of hope that one day you will be skilled enough to be best.

Modern gaming community is different. Casual gaming boom is not a paradox - it was grown by lazy human nature, incompetence of modern journalism and many other factors. Anyone can ran through console game and if you stuck you can youtube boss for glitches. Most of modern games have no challenge but they still use arcade magnet like fancy looks of characters and big explosions. The main problem is that they lack gaming content such as victory of human brain over AI. That is the reason (I don't like that word!) hardcore gamers feel so empty when another "blockbuster/artful" game is over.

I can post forever, but I guess enough said in "Minigames for morons".
Terminator in bath bend down to pick up a soap. On his display massage appeared: "Warning! New hardware detected!"
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Unread postby icycalm » 28 Aug 2008 16:39

A nice example of how arcade games manage to remain free from "empty calories":

It was intended that the car-smashing bonus rounds from earlier Street Fighter games would return [in SFIV]. Ono later stated that the bonus stages would not be in the arcade game, but they may be in the console ports. He cited the reason being that the time players spend on bonus stages takes money from arcade operators.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_IV

Having said that, I must admit that I DID enjoy the bonus rounds in the original SFII... But, hey, I was like ten.
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Unread postby JoshF » 29 Aug 2008 05:53

They did play a part when playing for score, but I wouldn't miss them either.
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Unread postby Molloy » 30 Aug 2008 10:57

The good news is there are still some places outside Japan where they take high scores very seriously indeed.
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Unread postby Jedah » 30 Aug 2008 11:43

I will miss them, bonus games were nice distractions from the main single player challenge. 3rd Strike had them also. Not to mention that even if the main focus is competitive multiplayer, bonus games offered an excellent alternative of beating your opponent + destroying stuff faster than him.
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Unread postby Mr. Apol » 30 Sep 2008 04:05

Oh hey icycalm, just wanted to say this was a delightful article.

I get what you're talking about. It's one reason why I would play Contra III on the hardest difficulty, with the lowest amount of lives, forbidding myself from continuing. Granted, I was young, and didn't really think it out as well as you did in your essay, but I can definitely say I feel where you're coming from.
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Unread postby mees » 30 Sep 2008 19:34

I was wondering: is the NES Ghosts N' Goblins substantially different from the arcade version?

Unless it is, then Super Ghouls and Ghosts is definitely the harder game. Completing the last level with the bracelet is more absurd than anything I had to deal with in Ghosts N' Goblins.

Otherwise: great article! I'm trying to get some of my game-design friends to read it.
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Unread postby ashn0d » 30 Sep 2008 23:26

Hi,

Like many others I loved the article (just finished reading it for the 3rd time). Eitherway, I have a simple question: are arcades in Japan age restricted?
I ask this because in Portugal (where I lived) they regulated the arcades a long time ago (about 15 years) and since then you need to have at least 16 years old to be able to enter (I think this applies to LAN Houses too).
Playing :: Street Fighter IV (X360) /\ Skate 2 (X360) /\ GTA IV (X360) /\ The World Ends With You (DS)
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Unread postby icycalm » 07 Nov 2008 20:52

Okano’s Top Five Shooting Games

5. Chorensha: This is a game I spent a lot of time on and gave me lots of fun. It’s a very minor title that was developed by amateurs on the X68000 computer – you can find it really easily online. It’s not ruled by arcade business models so the game does not need to actually actively try to defeat the player. There is some kind of rule in the arcade which is to defeat the player in 3 minutes: if we don’t do so, the game won’t be profitable and won’t find a place in arcades. Chorensha experimented with what a shooting game would be like without this rule. One play would last something like a dozen minutes: if it lasted more, players would feel bored, less and they would feel angry. It works!


http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/sav ... page=0%2C4



PS. mees and ashn0d: I've no idea about your questions...
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Unread postby Cpt. Coin-op » 11 Nov 2008 01:32

mees wrote:I was wondering: is the NES Ghosts N' Goblins substantially different from the arcade version?

By "substantially different" do you mean "more/less difficult?" Because I can say I HAVE beaten the NES Ghosts 'n' Goblins. Once. The NES version seems to be a bit slower than the arcade (choppy framerate somewhat hampers the cheapass enemy AI's reflexes), but that's about it.
However, I will probably never manage to beat the arcade version.

And from my experience, Super Ghouls and Ghosts was a HELL of a lot easier than GnG.
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Unread postby BlackerOmegalon » 21 Nov 2008 14:15

This article came to mind when I read this:

Kikizo: Is there anything you wanted to implement in VF5R that you were unable to do, due to time or technology limitations?

Osaki: Hmmm, well, One thing I would really liked to have done is introduce some sort of internet versus match between arcades. You know, arcade-to-arcade play. The issue is, of course, the lag. In consumer games, people are satisfied with a small degree of lag being present, but in the arcade environment, that just isn't going to fly. When you play games online
at home, when things go badly, you can at least blame it on your bad LAN cable, or something like that. But in arcades, where we charge a hundred yen per game, we can't be making excuses for lack of quality like that.


http://games.kikizo.com/features/sega-a ... t08-p2.asp


I think it's pretty interesting that someone from a big developer like AM2 would come out and basically say that console games have lower standards of quality.

I also thought this was an interesting quote, due to the way he praises Call of Duty 4 (guess what he compares it too? :lol: ):
Kikizo: This is something we noticed when talking with you previously as well as talks we had with several other Japanese developers
, the people in Japan who develop videogames love western first person shooters yet for the Japanese public it remains a niche genre. Why do you think Japanese developers enjoy them so much while the people buying games in Japan seem to be uncaring for the genre?

Osaki: I think it's because in foreign markets, FPS games are kind of considered "flagship" titles for demonstrating new technology and the power of the hardware. In Japan's game market, fighting and racing games fall more into this line of thinking. So game companies here naturally want to check the newest FPS games out to see how the technology is being put to use. Stuff like FEAR and STALKER uses a new engine, as does the Unreal series. Plus, most of them are very well developed. Call of Duty 4 in particular is extremely impressive. It has the look and feel of an arcade game in places: it's very speedy and it keeps 60 frames per second. Well, on the 360, anyway. The fact that the game is challenging is good, too. The match recording system in CoD is also excellent - we actually referred to the way it works when making the recording system in the arcade version of VF5.
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Unread postby new_pornographer » 22 Nov 2008 19:26

I wasn't sure whether to post this in a new topic, as it doesn't strictly relate to the discussion of arcade 'culture' as such. However, in this day of arcades being a rarity in North America and Europe I think this gentleman and his wife in the following video are doing a very commendable thing creating an arcade that is a 'community space' as opposed to a business:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh1lGJTYAHo
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Jan 2009 23:01

bloodflowers wrote:The older arcade manuals advised operators to set games to be hard enough that their players could only last for 3 minutes, to maximise profits. It's there in black & white, in a lot of Capcom ones.


http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 074#436074

I didn't know about this. Very interesting. I wonder if this is true for all region manuals, or perhaps only of specific ones.
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Unread postby Recap » 30 Jan 2009 23:59

That's just the usual idiotic stuff Americans added to their manuals, of course, so has zero value. All the Japanese manuals I've checked for Capcom games don't say a word about that. If anything, they talk about how the self-adjusting difficulty works, and rarely.
Or if they didn't want players to credit feed, since basic design choices all point to COIN OP.
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Unread postby icycalm » 31 Jan 2009 00:11

lol
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Unread postby icycalm » 31 Jan 2009 03:17

Don Daglow wrote:I really was influenced by the coin-ops, but here, since we weren't trying to eat quarters, we didn't have to think about how you would try -- without being a coin-op, which I had never designed, but from my observation of people -- to kill off the player and get another quarter without actually being unfair, and in being unfair, making him angry. But you're still trying to get that next quarter.

The great thing we had in those early days with the simple consoles was we could do coin-op style games, but we already had the quarters. We didn't need to balance for that. We could balance for the actual experience of feeling good about owning the game, rather than having to think about the quarter mentality.


http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... tory=22021

Which is why you had such a hard time balancing anything. Because you didn't need to.
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