Theory

[c001357]

http://www.sirlin.net/

He is probably the go to guy for game design and related topics, with such works as "Playing To Win". And I find his essays make sense; but I would like a more critical look on his articles, without using the "scrub" approach.

[Jedah]

I admit that I found some interesting views in his articles, BUT he destroyed my opinion about him when he started whining for not getting a free license for his Street fighter card game (I would provide a link for this but I can't find it in his new site). David my man, I really like your enthusiasm as a gamer, but as a game developer? His bio is some decent emulator packs (Sega Genesis Collection, Capcom Classics etc.) and he is "rebalancing" SSF2T for quite some time now. The results will be in our hands in the next days, although I'm a purist and I'll keep playing the original. Conclusion: No matter what he thinks, David Sirlin is NOT a SF lead designer (people in Capcom Japan are) or a proven good game designer. He has worked hard on emulated games and a port. Nothing less, nothing more.

[icycalm]

I guess I should try to be nice to him since he recently said something nice about one of my articles...

And, well, the best thing I can say is that there are far worse industry commentators out there. Jedah covered his game design credentials: in short, he doesn't have any. And as for this:

He is probably the go to guy for game design and related topics, with such works as "Playing To Win".

When you use a phrase like "with such works as" you are implying that a) he has written other works, and b) that they are of approximately the same level of quality as the example you gave. But has he actually written anything else? And as for "Playing to Win" itself, I've read the first few pages on an Amazon book preview, and was surprised to see how neatly he sidestepped all the important issues and headed straight for the banal, therefore killing any desire I might have had to read the rest of it. My impression was that there's maybe one or two articles' worth of content in there blown up to fill a whole book.

And to get back to this:

He is probably the go to guy for game design and related topics

If Sirlin is the go to guy for game design then what are the people who designed Deus Ex? Or Civilization? Or Armed Police Batrider? Or Herzog Zwei? Or Gears of War? Or, or, or, or, or...

I mean WTF.

Still, I voted cool guy, because he certainly seems to be that. Like I said, there's far less cool gamer guys out there...

[icycalm]

Okay, I've just spent a few minutes going through his site, and though I found a LOT of stuff to criticize him for, I am just going to go over his bio for you:

http://www.sirlin.net/about/

I have degrees in math and business from MIT, but I've continued studying many fields since then, especially writing, psychology, physics, and politics (with special interest in free speech and civil rights).

His special interests are lollerific. (Anyone who takes "free speech" and "civil rights" seriously is still stuck in the 19th century, intellectually speaking.)

Also, his claim to have "continued studying writing" sounds interesting! Still, I would have been more impressed if he was claiming to have "continued studying thinking".

Disturbingly, I'm more academic than many people who are called "game academics."

He says this as a way of praising himself, without realizing that, among intelligent people, calling someone an "academic" is an insult.

What I should be working on:

* A single-player story based game that speaks to ethics in non-pathetic, non-KOTOR-like way

Still hasn't heard that story-based games do not exist, and that ethics is a misunderstanding that was resolved about 90 years ago.

Recently shipped:

* Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix (XBLA/PSN)
* Kongai Virtual Card Game, Kongregate.com (web)
* Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix (XBLA/PSN)
* SEGA Genesis Collection (PS2/Xbox)
* Capcom Classics Collection 2 (PS2/Xbox)
* Capcom Classics Collection: Remixed (PSP)
* Capcom Classics Colleciton (PS2/Xbox)

Ignoring the ugliness of using a phrase such as "recently shipped" (ugh) to tell people which games he has worked on, I think it is hilarious how he tries to pad up his resume with all those crappy emulated collections. And did he actually "ship" SSF2THD?

I try my best to make quality products, which has earned me a reputation as a troublemaker. For some reason, it's a constant battle against mediocrity because apparently mediocrity sells. It doesn't last though, or build long-term value, so it's not worth getting out of bed for.

Look at all this mighty puffing and huffing and chest-thumping! -- and all of it by a man who hasn't made anything worth getting the least bit excited about! Yes, Sirlin, mediocrity sells, which is why people like you can still find jobs in the gaming industry. I mean, Jesus.

I've learned that hardly any developers really understand the market of competitive games, so I guess that makes me valuable.

Yeah, I hear Epic, Valve, Blizzard, Arcsys, SNK, Examu, G.rev and dozens of other companies specializing in competitive games knocking on your door, right this moment, so that you can repackage their old games as badly emulated compilations, or find people to update their graphics while you mess around with "balance" and then proclaim that YOU in fact designed the final game. lol, etc.

Also:

I also like pointless, wacky Nintendo DS/Wii games as much as the next guy, and I understand and applaud Nintendo's strategy.

Yeah.

[RolandDeschain]

Heh, how funny; the day after I register, this topic pops up. I had originally heard about icy's site from Sirlin's forum, and hence decided to sign up.

While part of your criticism above is valid icy, you're selling his efforts as a designer horribly short. Both Puzzle Fighter and Super Turbo are/should be vastly more exciting and well-balanced competitive games thanks to his efforts.

Check out his articles on balancing;

http://www.sirlin.net/sf (Akuma article hidden above Honda and Blanka portraits)

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancin ... ghter.html

Tinkering with near-perfection (in both games) and coming out with an even more amazing product deserves an awful lot of praise.

[icycalm]

While part of your criticism above is valid icy, you're selling his efforts as a designer horribly short. Both Puzzle Fighter and Super Turbo are/should be vastly more exciting and well-balanced competitive games thanks to his efforts.

Tinkering with near-perfection (in both games) and coming out with an even more amazing product deserves an awful lot of praise.

In the first paragraph you are acknowledging that we so far have no idea if Sirlin's efforts helped the games or not, and to what extent.

In the second paragraph you take that as a fact.

Try to make your posts more coherent, please.

Also:

Tinkering with near-perfection (in both games) and coming out with an even more amazing product deserves an awful lot of praise.

I don't agree with this statement, even if it were true. Tinkering with "near-perfection" is still tinkering. Since when does "tinkering" of any kind deserve an awful lot of praise?

Check out his articles on balancing;

http://www.sirlin.net/sf (Akuma article hidden above Honda and Blanka portraits)

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancin ... ghter.html

I don't find the subject very exciting, so I'll pass.

[RolandDeschain]

In the first paragraph you are acknowledging that we so far have no idea if Sirlin's efforts helped the games or not, and to what extent.

Of course we do! Read the two links I gave you. They both chronicle, in MINUTE DETAIL, everything he has done for both games. I know for a fact that they've improved Puzzle Fighter Remix because I've played it, and there is actual variety in serious match-ups and attack patterns now, as opposed to it being Ken vs. Ken all the time.

I can't say to what extent they've improved HD Remix, (although I will by the end of the week) but the actual list of changes is RIGHT THERE.

I don't agree with this statement, even if it were true. Tinkering with "near-perfection" is still tinkering. Since when does "tinkering" of any kind deserve an awful lot of praise?

When one considerably improves upon two classic titles, it deserves a lot of praise, yes.

I don't find the subject very exciting, so I'll pass.

What? You mentioned not knowing his exact contributions, and so I gave you two links with information on the subject. Now you're saying you'll "pass".

So were you interested in reading these changes beforehand or not?

[Recap]

When one considerably improves upon two classic titles, it deserves a lot of praise, yes.

HD Remix is officially the funniest joke Americans have ever made with a Japanese franchise. Hope you're kidding. We can talk about Backbone's emulation benchmark, too. Could get scary, though.

Everything Capcom USA has produced has been utter crap and indeed its "let's mess with Japan's classics" trend is quite offensive. Praise for whom?

[icycalm]

In the first paragraph you are acknowledging that we so far have no idea if Sirlin's efforts helped the games or not, and to what extent.

Of course we do! Read the two links I gave you. They both chronicle, in MINUTE DETAIL, everything he has done for both games.

It looks like I might soon have to ban you. So Sirlin chronicles in "minute detail" everything he has done for both games, and that is supposed to convince me that he has improved them? What sort of dumbass reasoning is that? How old are you?

And I just made a HL2 mod and chronicled in MINUTE DETAIL everything I have done for the game, so of course it is the best game evar!!11 lol. Fucking moron.

I know for a fact that they've improved Puzzle Fighter Remix because I've played it, and there is actual variety in serious match-ups and attack patterns now, as opposed to it being Ken vs. Ken all the time.

Well, good for you. That still comes nowhere near convincing me because I have no idea who YOU are.

I can't say to what extent they've improved HD Remix, (although I will by the end of the week) but the actual list of changes is RIGHT THERE.

Yeah, it looks like you are going to have to stop posting in this forum. Sorry. :(

I don't agree with this statement, even if it were true. Tinkering with "near-perfection" is still tinkering. Since when does "tinkering" of any kind deserve an awful lot of praise?

When one considerably improves upon two classic titles, it deserves a lot of praise, yes.

You have no idea what the word 'tinkering' means, I see. I tinkered with a Lamborghini Diablo last night -- I guess that means I deserve a lot of praise too. Perhaps just as much as the guys who designed it. Or who knows, perhaps even more.

What? You mentioned not knowing his exact contributions, and so I gave you two links with information on the subject. Now you're saying you'll "pass".

Yes, that's what happened. Do you always have to recap everything people say before you respond to them?

So were you interested in reading these changes beforehand or not?

I was never interested in reading these changes, since I don't plan on playing this game anytime soon, if ever.

[icycalm]

I think Sirlin is fast becoming my new favorite lol-provider. Tim Rogers is getting old.

From the epilogue of his book:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/final-thoughts.html

So do all the lessons of winning at games apply to real life? No, they do not.

lol

Competitive games are a means of expression as well.

And so is taking a dump.

The brilliant, half-finished book is of little value compared to the published one.

So the few surviving fragments of Heraclitus are of little value compared to a "published" book -- Sirlin's, for example.

So the application of Playing to Win to real life is not a simple, direct relationship. It may require some wisdom on your part to know which aspects of games are diametrically opposed to real life, and which ones are not.

How about this, man: none. Is that wise enough for you?

[Kuzdu]

The one game that David Sirlin has designed completely is the collectible card game Kongai for the Flash game site Kongregate (I think started a thread about it a couple of months back). From what I've played I didn't like it that much. It felt like the right move to make was always obvious, and since execution wasn't a factor it didn't really hold my interest. I've been told though, that it gets much more interesting the longer you play.

Either way, any opinion of whether or not David Sirlin is a good game designer should probably rest on what one thinks of that game.

[Recap]

Legit snapshot, believe it or not.

[Jedah]

You must be kidding me... When I read that old graphics were available I thought the game could be switched to arcade graphics, THROUGHOUT. Instead they keep the backgrounds and replace UDON graphics (not that good if you ask me) with blurred original sprites. LAZY TO THE NTH!

[c001357]

Thanks for the opinions.

[Macaw]

I'm an experienced ST player, and am quite familiar with the American fighting game scene. Sirlin is an accomplished tourny player, and the fact he is working on / worked on HD Remix doesn't bother me at all. I'd rather have a top player doing all the balance stuff than some random dude, and I find his balancing articles very interesting. And its not like he's proclaiming he's the best designer around, or that the changes he is making to HD Remix are going to make the game turn out superior than the original.

Also, the very existence of HD Remix is something I don't mind. The Japanese are going to be playing ST on tournament level regardless of anything, so they don't care what Capcom America puts out, and neither do I. The fact however that a top player is in charge of doing all the tinkering (with the help of other American top players) at least puts credibility behind it, so it definitely isn't just shovelware that has no purpose. I'm also sure the original developers of SF2 wouldn't be offended by others taking their game and tinkering with it over a decade later, but rather they would feel proud their game was so influential and has had such long legs.

American Street Fighter on a whole has had good history, and shouldn't be taken as a joke. If you really do just not give a shit though, then just stick to original ST.

As for the quality of the high res re-drawn artwork, I haven't seen enough screens or movies, so I cant comment.

I've learned that hardly any developers really understand the market of competitive games, so I guess that makes me valuable.

Yeah, I hear Epic, Valve, Blizzard, Arcsys, SNK, Examu, G.rev and dozens of other companies specializing in competitive games knocking on your door, right this moment, so that you can repackage their old games as badly emulated compilations, or find people to update their graphics while you mess around with "balance" and then proclaim that YOU in fact designed the final game. lol, etc.

I think you are being a bit too critical, and getting too irritated with your thought that Sirlin thinks he's a god at designing and that street fighter 2 is now his baby.

In all fighting game communities Sirlin gets a lot of heat and a lot of praise, but everyone knows he is not the original designer, that he has never shipped an original video game, and that he is just some dude tinkering with a famous game. I'm sure he knows this as well. The thing is, as stated before, he is a top ST player with heaps of experience both competing in tournaments and running tournaments, and thats what he is getting at in that comment about him being valuable for understanding competitive gaming.

[icycalm]

Macaw, you just need to pay more attention to what has been said in a thread before replying to it. You just skimmed this thread, took away an impression of a "negative" mood from it, were offended by this "negative" mood, and proceeded to counter it with some "positive" comments of your own, most of which were either things that went without saying, or else replies to arguments which no one even made.

I see this sort of attitude all the time, especially in other forums (see here, for a recent example of our own), and, man, it just TIRES the FUCK out of me. So when it happens, because I am trying to completely eradicate it from this forum, I have two options:

a) Delete the offending comments and be done with it.

or,

b) Reply to all of them in detail, which means I have to fill a thread with boring, tedious, pointless, and mostly off-topic comments which can't be removed.

Normally I go with a, but since you have contributed to this website I am forced to do it the hard way so as not to offend you too much (though you are forcing me to offend you either way) :(

I'm an experienced ST player, and am quite familiar with the American fighting game scene. Sirlin is an accomplished tourny player, and the fact he is working on / worked on HD Remix doesn't bother me at all. I'd rather have a top player doing all the balance stuff than some random dude

All stuff that goes without saying and no one is disagreeing with.

and I find his balancing articles very interesting.

Probably a reply to my comment about not finding them interesting. But I explained the reason. There are two types of "interestingness": the objective and the subjective kind. Objectively, Sirlin's balance articles are interesting because he is, after all, a top player, and because he is the one doing the rebalancing in the game which he discusses. Subjectively, his articles are not interesting to me because I have no desire to play the game in the near future. So my "not interesting" and your "interesting" are two entirely different beasts. But yeah, the guy I banned didn't get this either. Which is part of the reason why I banned him.

And its not like he's proclaiming he's the best designer around, or that the changes he is making to HD Remix are going to make the game turn out superior than the original.

Here you are wrong though, and on both counts. It is clear from the passages quoted in this thread already that Sirlin is making these claims, either directly or indirectly, and certainly by many other comments on his website (which you can bet I will post here once I find the time to go looking for them). And even if he wasn't making them (which he is) his fuckhead fans certainly are (see the comments of the guy I banned earlier in this thread), and that is something I will not tolerate.

Also, the very existence of HD Remix is something I don't mind. The Japanese are going to be playing ST on tournament level regardless of anything, so they don't care what Capcom America puts out, and neither do I.

My, my, my. This is almost offensively simpleminded. On the one hand -- guess what! -- it goes without saying. It's like saying that you don't care if pieces of shit exist in this world because you are not obliged to eat them. But this commonsensical principle does not apply to the world of criticism, which is what this place is all about. What we are doing here is providing criticism, which means we are obliged to call things good or bad, meaning that we are obliged to care. If you don't care either way about a particular game, whether it ends up being good or bad, then for God's sakes save us all some time and don't fucking post about it!

The fact however that a top player is in charge of doing all the tinkering (with the help of other American top players) at least puts credibility behind it, so it definitely isn't just shovelware that has no purpose.

I follow you on the credibility part, but the game could still very well turn out to be shovelware. Not shovelware in the "Barbie game" sense but shovelware in the crap game sense.

I'm also sure the original developers of SF2 wouldn't be offended by others taking their game and tinkering with it over a decade later, but rather they would feel proud their game was so influential and has had such long legs.

More commonsensical, goes-without-saying stuff.

American Street Fighter on a whole has had good history, and shouldn't be taken as a joke.

What exactly is "American Street Fighter"? Is it anything like "Swedish Street Fighter"? Or "Korean Gears of War?" I was under the impression Street Fighter was a Japanese game?

Don't confuse a game's country of origin with its local playing scenes. You are embarassing me. And yes, I am aware that some American dude worked on ST, but that doesn't say anything. Plenty of Americans work in the Japanese game industry but a Japanese game is a Japanese game and an American game is an American game goddamn it! How hard can that be to understand?

If you really do just not give a shit though, then just stick to original ST.

Boy, you must really think the people who browse this forum are pretty fucking stupid if you deem it necessary to give them such an obvious piece of "advice". :(

Either that or you are lost. Is this the place you were looking for?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/

I think you are being a bit too critical, and getting too irritated with your thought that Sirlin thinks he's a god at designing and that street fighter 2 is now his baby.

He has made it clear that he thinks it is. And yes, after reading his bio and spending an hour or so going through his site and reading his book, I am now officially irritated with his naive opinions and smarmy tone. Which is why this will become the official Insomnia Sirlin LOL thread.

In all fighting game communities Sirlin gets a lot of heat and a lot of praise, but everyone knows he is not the original designer, that he has never shipped an original video game, and that he is just some dude tinkering with a famous game.

"Everyone knows?"

How about you read a thread before you reply to it? Did you miss the guy I just banned? WTF, dude!

I'm sure he knows this as well.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

The thing is, as stated before, he is a top ST player with heaps of experience both competing in tournaments and running tournaments, and thats what he is getting at in that comment about him being valuable for understanding competitive gaming.

If that's what you took away from a comment in which he implies that companies like Epic, Valve, Blizzard, Arcsys, SNK, Examu, G.rev and dozens of other companies specializing in competitive games "hardly really understand the market of competitive games" then you need to go back to school and brush up on you reading comprehension skills.



THE END

1. Whoever wants to discuss HD Remix should start a dedicated thread

2. I will simply be deleting pointless/off-topic/goes-without-saying comments from now because I've had enough of replying to them. This fucking reply took up half an hour from my day for fuck's sake, AND IT'S EVEN MOSTLY OFF-TOPIC!

[Macaw]

American Street Fighter on a whole has had good history, and shouldn't be taken as a joke.

What exactly is "American Street Fighter"? Is it anything like "Swedish Street Fighter"? Or "Korean Gears of War?" I was under the impression Street Fighter was a Japanese game?

Don't confuse a game's country of origin with its local playing scenes. You are embarassing me. And yes, I am aware that some American dude worked on ST, but that doesn't say anything. Plenty of Americans work in the Japanese game industry but a Japanese game is a Japanese game and an American game is an American game goddamn it! How hard can that be to understand?

Just to clear this up, I was talking about the history of the playing scene in America, all the big tournaments, the level of play in general, etc. Trying to say that American players balancing the game shouldn't instantly be ignored.

[icycalm]

Which is something no one came even remotely close to claiming in this thread. And I should know, because if anyone did I would have banned them.

[fubarduck]

icycalm, you pretty much hit the nail on the head, leading to gushing, exploding dynamite brains, totally sweet cars and hot babes.

While I can't say if HD-Remix and/or Puzzle Fighter Remix are better games (that is only realized with months or years of competitive play), the changes for both overall seemed reasonable and as a tournament player I don't mind them. I didn't play Super Turbo before, but I'd probably enter an HD Remix tournament just because it's an incredibly easy game to pick up and the game will have a lot of hype here in the States thanks to the accessibility.

There's a TON of stuff I don't like about the game design and the final product, but it wasn't enough for me to resist a day-one purchase. Really, the best thing about it is that it's the only fighting game for a game console with good netcode. Gives me something interesting to do on a lazy day.

The issues you pointed out in Sirlin's bio are all there. Just like a rich person doesn't have to tell you they're rich and a cool person doesn't have to tell you they're cool, if Sirlin were an excellent game designer, he wouldn't have to puff out his chest in his bio: we'd know. Why? He would have designed and shipped his own game, or be working for a real game developer (exactly as you said). Note that I don't use the term "game balancer" because that is not a real position; the ability to balance your game is presumably included in the "game designer" package.

Derek Daniels (Street Fighter player turned game dev) is an example of a real game designer, and if Sirlin were a valuable asset, you can bet he'd be picked up by a well-known game developer with his connections in the SF community. What did Derek Daniels do that Sirlin didn't? He proved himself with well-developed shovelware (Backyard Wrestling 1 & 2) then followed it up with an excellent game engine for an original IP: God of War. Shipping a game like that basically makes you a rock star/renowned movie director. No one is going to forget God of War.

While I don't think that Sirlin has done a disservice to the community, he certainly doesn't need (or deserve) to act like God's gift to fighting gamers. I have played 3rd Strike competitively for 8 years; does that mean I have the credentials to make a rebalanced 3rd Strike? Maybe if I write that in my blog, I'll get hired for 3rd Strike Remix and can make Akuma's new sprite have Down Syndrome (lol).

I've always found that a little humility goes a long way. Unfortunately, the U.S. is full of people waving their junk around, so it's really nothing new. I'm sure HD Remix will sell reasonably (although I doubt it will get them out of the red for the project) and I'm sure Sirlin will get another job (I also somehow doubt that he voluntarily left Backbone). Hopefully, this time it'll be a game design position so that he ship his own product and justify the hot air balloon that is sirlin.net.

[icycalm]

Interesting story about Derek Daniels. It does indeed illustrate a lot. I would however like to clarify something concerning this:

The issues you pointed out in Sirlin's bio are all there. Just like a rich person doesn't have to tell you they're rich and a cool person doesn't have to tell you they're cool, if Sirlin were an excellent game designer, he wouldn't have to puff out his chest in his bio

I do not blame Sirlin for puffing up his chest in his bio -- I blame him for puffing up his chest in his bio without having sufficient reason to do so. And in fact I don't even "blame" him for this, since in his own mediocre mind he sincerely seems to think that his achievements are such that deserve to be portrayed in this grossly exaggerated way, so he is not really conscious of how ridiculous his empty boasting seems to others. And besides, I can tell that Sirlin is the kind of guy to read and take "self-help" books seriously (his own book reeks of the self-help mentality), and all of these books advise people to lie their hearts out in their CVs anyway.

So, basically, I am laughing at Sirlin for his mediocrity -- not for his lack of modesty. Here's a couple of passages from Schopenhauer which perfectly explain my stance vis-à-vis modesty, of which I certainly have none:

This explains how modesty came to be a virtue. It was invented only as a protection against envy. That there have always been rascals to urge this virtue, and to rejoice heartily over the bashfulness of a man of merit, has been shown at length in my chief work. In Lichtenberg’s Miscellaneous Writings I find this sentence quoted: Modesty should be the virtue of those who possess no other. Goethe has a well-known saying, which offends many people: It is only knaves who are modest! -- Nur die Lumpen sind bescheiden! but it has its prototype in Cervantes, who includes in his Journey up Parnassus certain rules of conduct for poets, and amongst them the following: Everyone whose verse shows him to be a poet should have a high opinion of himself, relying on the proverb that he is a knave who thinks himself one. And Shakespeare, in many of his Sonnets, which gave him the only opportunity he had of speaking of himself, declares, with a confidence equal to his ingenuousness, that what he writes is immortal.

Modesty in a great mind would, no doubt, be pleasing to the world; but, unluckily, it is a contradictio in adjecto. It would compel a genius to give the thoughts and opinions, nay, even the method and style, of the million preference over his own; to set a higher value upon them; and, wide apart as they are, to bring his views into harmony with theirs, or even suppress them altogether, so as to let the others hold the field. In that case, however, he would either produce nothing at all, or else his achievements would be just upon a level with theirs. Great, genuine and extraordinary work can be done only in so far as its author disregards the method, the thoughts, the opinions of his contemporaries, and quietly works on, in spite of their criticism, on his side despising what they praise. No one becomes great without arrogance of this sort.

[Bradford]

I think that modesty (as a virtue) is better considered to be merely the absence of pretense. Thus, pretending that one is less than they are is equally bad as pretending one is more.

Edit: That is, "better considered" than the standard definition that Schopenhauer was addressing and which most people adhere to, not better considered than Schopenhauer's commentary.

[icycalm]

Thus, pretending that one is less than they are is equally bad as pretending one is more.

The problem is that, if someone is to avoid pretending that they are more or less than they are, they must have what is known as "self-knowledge", which is a very slippery quality, not easy to attain even in the best of circumstances! So you can't really blame anyone for getting it wrong. You can laugh at them, but you can't blame them. And besides, it can often prove advantageous in life to pretend to be more or less than we ourselves think we are. If Sirlin's boasting lands him his desired job, then I mean, hell, it was a good idea he did it! Of course we can still keep laughing at him regardless, and at the people who were taken in by his empty boasting.

[Bradford]

And besides, it can often prove advantageous in life to pretend to be more or less than we ourselves think we are. If Sirlin's boasting lands him his desired job, then I mean, hell, it was a good idea he did it!

Well sure, but I was presupposing that we were addressing the meaning of 'humility' in conjunction with a concept of virtue. You might make material gains that way, but you'd never achieve eudaimonia...

[icycalm]

That's a very narrow, very moralistic viewpoint -- and therefore wrong :) It's what Socrates and most philosophers after him taught, but they were all a bunch of small- and narrow-minded hypocrites. The truth is that happiness can be achieved just as well through lies and exaggerations as through truth and honesty. It just depends on the person. And as for material gains... they have always been the only ones that mattered! Certainly more than immaterial ones!

This, by the way, is all that needs to be said about humility (which is essentially a stronger version of modesty):

When stepped on, a worm doubles up. That is clever. In that way he lessens the probability of being stepped on again. In the language of morality: humility.

[kod]

Icy, I just wanted to let you know . . . if you and sirlin ever agree to have a battle to the death for the title of "Teh Intarweb's Biggest Self-Important Jackass", I'll be the first to buy ringside seats. Hell, I'd even pay your going rate for reading an email - what is it now, $300 ?