[PC] [MAC] [360] [PS3] Team Fortress 2

[Jon R.]

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/pc/teamfortress2/

I've actually been playing this recently, and I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Fast paced CTF game was replaced with a slow Team Deathmatch game.

Actually, my first impression and complaint was that the pace is faster than what i'm used to with TF. Most of the design decisions reflect that.

Class specific grenades were removed which caused more class blurring and a significant loss of depth.

If by "depth" you mean "spam", yeah no more nailgrens and MIRVs everywhere. Most grenades were either extremely annoying or to make up for a deficiency that no longer exists in TF2. Hallucinogen grenades in particular brought things to a dead stop and would be a nightmare, and the damage-oriented ones were used as a cheap way to temporarily shut down an area.

Advanced movement techniques were removed which significantly lowered the game's depth.

Concjumping was retarded. Concjumping was broken. Rocketjumps are still there, as are pipejumps, and both are even more viable with the medic's ranged healing.

Several weapons were removed (and replaced with nothing) which also lowered the game's depth.

The ancillary weapons were holdovers from Quake, and saw most of their use when you were out of ammo for the one weapon that wasn't crap for your class. The surprising difference for me in TF2 is how useful all of the weapons are: a scout has a fair shot at killing a heavy in TF2, whereas in TF you had to hope the heavy sucked as you spent 15 seconds plinking away with the nailgun.

Oh right, you whined about that too, a scout being able to kill a heavy. Why it just breaks heavies completely... except they're magnets for medics.

The balance was worse than TFC at the highest level of play.

You say this as though TFC weren't a sloppy bastardization of QWTF.

20 second respawn timers made spawn camping a dominant strategy.

Now i know you haven't played QWTF. Those class-specific grenades you miss? Yeah, guess what those were used for? And as was the case back then, spawncamping is primarily a mapping error.

Offensive capabilities were limited so turtling was encouraged.

What?

Armor was removed.

Armor was another useless holdover from the Quake days. Fundamentally, it was simply a finite damage reduction modifier. In other words, a certain amount of shots on another player didn't do full damage, and how much armor the other person had was not constant. And yet you bitch about crits.

In practical terms, it was the stuff your fuckwit teammates shot off before you could get to the other base anyway.

Shells, Nails, Rockets and Cells were replaced by a universal ammo (picking up a pistol will magically refill your rocket launcher).

The shock of such wild logic must be tremendous for someone like you who inexplicably laments the loss of "advanced movement techniques".

You could no longer throw ammo.

Probably because stocking up no longer means taking on a bunch of ammo for weapons you don't have, and because with the change to universal ammo you can replenish your stock from that of anyone you've killed.

And unless TFC was far more retarded than i remember, the only reason to drop ammo was

A) to drop ammotypes your class doesn't use, giving enemies a lower probability of being able to refill their own if they kill you

B) to lessen the damage caused by EMP grens, which no longer exist

C) to give to engineers, who can get materials from their own dispensers in TF2

You could no longer throw the flag once you had it.

What? Who fuckin' cares?

Random Dice Rolls/Critical Hits were added that did 3 times more damage.

Surprisingly, i haven't found this to be a huge problem, and i'm really sensitive to mechanics like this.

Maybe crits were screwy before i started playing, but now they tend to kick in when you're already on a roll. On offense. For which you were just bitching about there being no incentive.

Damage ranges i haven't noticed any appreciable effects for; with or without them, you're going to end up with a target lucking out with like 5hp or something after they kill you. Opportunities for damage happen so fast that there's no real envelope between them that would make or break it.

Also, good luck doing THIS with a controller.

And here's what it always comes to. Butthurt about not being able to abuse game physics to basically break the design. If you're whining about TF2 being slow, not having grenades, not encouraging offense... it's because you used to play a scout and need to pout about not being able to completely circumvent a base defense as the weakest class.

[Worm]

being able to abuse game physics to basically break the design.

Even if you consider things like concjumping to be stupid exploits, do you deny that the skill ceiling is higher in TFC than TF2, therefore making TF2 less complex?

[Jon R.]

being able to abuse game physics to basically break the design.

Even if you consider things like concjumping to be stupid exploits, do you deny that the skill ceiling is higher in TFC than TF2, therefore making TF2 less complex?

Yes. In fact, i think it was that particular exploit that made TFC less complex than its predecessor. The ability to fling yourself that far is purely due to the exaggerated physics of a game Valve pretty much just slapped together as a stopgap for not having their shit together with TF2. Most of those "advanced movement techniques" were merely a product of a floaty engine.

I'm not entirely sure how i feel about the game yet, but i find it extremely hard to call it less complex. Unlike TF where people basically settled on their favorite classes and changed only in a pinch, my experience so far is that the strange equalization of classes ends up with more dynamic team compositions, which leads to more dynamic tactics (or at least attempts at such on pub servers). I'm sure this breaks down with the laughably so-called "competetive" scene's ethos of pathologically hunting for exploits to ruthlessly and mechanically win the fun right the fuck out of everything they touch, but otherwise i'm not seeing any consolization at all.

Even with the melee attacks. God forbid those should ever break the mold of being completely useless.

[Crazy Man]

I've actually been playing this recently, and i have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

I've been in over 100 competitive scrims and over 30 league matches in TF2 before I quit. I've watched dozens of demos of the top TF2 teams, observing their strategies and class selections. I think I might know a bit more about the game than you do.

Actually, my first impression and complaint was that the pace is faster than what i'm used to with TF. Most of the design decisions reflect that.

My first impression was why does the TF2 Scout move slower than the TFC Engineer. When I first played TF2, I thought that the game would be able to retain some depth even without grenades. Boy was I wrong.

If by "depth" you mean "spam", yeah no more nailgrens and MIRVs everywhere. Most grenades were either extremely annoying or to make up for a deficiency that no longer exists in TF2.

Grenade spam doesn't exist in CTF maps or in competitive play. The only time grenade spam really exists is in pub scrub maps like Dustbowl, but even then players do not spawn with grenades. There is only 1 grenade pack in each course and it takes 15 seconds after it is picked up to respawn. When the gates unlock, you're going to have some spam for the first 20 seconds, but then the instant player respawn is easily going to outdo the 15 second grenade spawn. Once the offensive team secures the grenade pack, you can kiss nade spam goodbye.

Hallucinogen grenades in particular brought things to a dead stop and would be a nightmare,

Yet they didn't slow you down at all. All they did was give you minor DoT and have you see fake projectiles.

and the damage-oriented ones were used as a cheap way to temporarily shut down an area.

And I suppose fireballs in the Street Fighter games were used as a "cheap" way to temporarily shut down the horizontal area of the playing field.

Concjumping was retarded. Concjumping was broken.

The only thing that's broken in TFC are teleporters which Valve added in 2003. You could build them through walls, in resupply rooms, and take the flag through the teleporter. The competitive community agreed that they were broken by a landslide and had them banned. Valve still hasn't fixed them to this date.

I've played TFC competitively for nearly 4 years. I honestly don't think that Concjumping was broken at all. I believe it only added depth to the game and made it one of the most unique FPS games in history. But don't take my word for it:

http://forums.thecatacombs.net/

The above forum is the main competitive forum for TFC. Some of the best TFC players in the world post there. Try asking them if Concjumping broke the game. They're the real experts.

Rocketjumps are still there, as are pipejumps, and both are even more viable with the medic's ranged healing.

Yet Rocketjumps and Sticky-bomb jumps are piss easy to learn and master. Grenade and Conc jumps however took loads of practice to get your timing just right. A second off and you just waisted a valuable jump that may determine whether or not you get the flag.

The ancillary weapons were holdovers from Quake, and saw most of their use when you were out of ammo for the one weapon that wasn't crap for your class.

I can agree that the Pyro's flame weapons and the Engineer's railgun were useless. Unlike TF2 however, the Fortress Forever mod rebalanced them so they would actually be useful, rather than go the lazy Valve route and outright delete them.

The surprising difference for me in TF2 is how useful all of the weapons are: a scout has a fair shot at killing a heavy in TF2, whereas in TF you had to hope the heavy sucked as you spent 15 seconds plinking away with the nailgun.

Oh right, you whined about that too, a scout being able to kill a heavy. Why it just breaks heavies completely... except they're magnets for medics.

In TF2, the Scout utterly destroys everything but Heavies and Sentry guns. As such, they are his main counters and are indeed very hard counters. I'm all for a highly skilled Scout taking down a really crappy Heavy though. I'm not however for a crappy Scout being able to utterly disable an invincible and skilled Heavy with some imba weapon that the player unlocked after grinding for achievements. The new Sandman bat is going to utterly destroy the Heavy as he's too slow to dodge projectiles. He doesn't get enough usage in competitive play as it is.

You say this as though TFC weren't a sloppy bastardization of QWTF.

Valve's version at launch? A sloppy bastardization for a sequel indeed. But the competitive fan community evolved TFC into something well beyond Valve's original intentions of it being a quick cash in.

Now i know you haven't played QWTF. Those class-specific grenades you miss? Yeah, guess what those were used for? And as was the case back then, spawncamping is primarily a mapping error.

I'll admit that I've barely played much of QWTF because at the time I started getting into the TF series, the competitive QWTF scene was dying and the fan mod community was almost nonexistent while the competitive TFC scene was booming and the fan community was constantly churning out new gametypes and maps.

In TFC however, spawn camping as a dominant strategy was non-existant. If a Demoman attempted to camp the spawn door with grellow pipes, he would get a well timed grenade to the face. Even if you did die, you would instantly respawn to kick his ass. In TF2 however, you can't do shit as the doors open slower and he will detonate them before you can even see him. Waiting 20 seconds after getting spawn camped sure is fun. At least in TFC your corpse wouldn't resupply him with more ammo. Contrary to what you said, grenades actually helped prevent spawn camping.

What?

The lack of grenades were a huge boost to turtling Engineers and Heavies. Grenades were the main counter to sentry guns and now in TF2's CTF maps we have teams that consist of half Engineers. Offensive players could no longer grenade jump to much needed places and the removal of advanced movement techniques made outrunning the defense impossible for even the most skilled of players.

In TFC, your average 20 minute long competitive CTF match would have scores of 5:10 flag caps. In TF2 however, your average 20 minute long competitive CTF match would have scores of 1:2 flag caps. Flag capping is ridiculously hard in TF2 and turtling is ridiculously easy. In TFC, good attackers are rewarded and bad attackers are punished. Just as bad defenders are punished and good defenders are rewarded. In TF2 however, good attackers are punished while crappy defenders are rewarded. There's a reason why most TF2 leagues don't bother with CTF matches: THEY SUCK.

Armor was another useless holdover from the Quake days. Fundamentally, it was simply a finite damage reduction modifier. In other words, a certain amount of shots on another player didn't do full damage, and how much armor the other person had was not constant.

Wrong again. TFC had 3 different types of Armor:

Light Armor: absorbs 30% damage. If you sustain 10 points of damage, you will lose 7 health points and 3 armor points.

Medium Armor: absorbs 60% damage. If you sustain 10 points of damage, you will lose 4 health points and 6 armor points.

Heavy Armor: absorbs 80% damage. If you sustain 10 points of damage, you will lose 2 health points and 8 armor points.

Not constant my ass. The multiple armor types forced teams to actually strategize as to who would take which type of armor as they were limited. The removal of armor was a loss of depth in my book.

And yet you bitch about crits.

You might not be able to see the health and armor of your enemy, but you at least know what your own health and armor is. With crits however, you have no idea whether you or your enemy are going to shoot out a rocket of instant death as you can't see if your going to crit or not.

The shock of such wild logic must be tremendous for someone like you who inexplicably laments the loss of "advanced movement techniques".

Perhaps you took the word "magic" the wrong way. This doesn't have to do with realism. It has to do with how it makes turtling even worse. In TFC, if a lone Soldier is defending the flag and he needs ammo, he actually has to leave his defensive post and go to the resupply room as the main offensive classes (Medic, Scout, and Spy) that he kills don't carry his much needed rockets, but shells and nails instead. In TF2 however, if a Soldier kills a Scout, then he can just pick up his baseball bat and use it to restore his rocket ammo without needing to leave his defensive post. Yes. Even minor stuff like this has a huge impact on CTF play.

Probably because stocking up no longer means taking on a bunch of ammo for weapons you don't have, and because with the change to universal ammo you can replenish your stock from that of anyone you've killed.

And unless TFC was far more retarded than i remember, the only reason to drop ammo was

A) to drop ammotypes your class doesn't use, giving enemies a lower probability of being able to refill their own if they kill you

B) to lessen the damage caused by EMP grens, which no longer exist

C) to give to engineers, who can get materials from their own dispensers in TF2

A) A loss of tactical depth.

B) A shame since they had a load of depth.

C) Engineers could get materials from their own dispensers in TFC too.

You're forgetting the main importance of throwable ammo: EMP ammo traps. The defensive Engineer has to tactically place ammo packs in key locations so his EMP grenades would cause them to explode, damaging any incoming intruder that may have accidently picked up one of the packs or stepped too close them. This simple feature added another layer of depth to the defensive side of the game which is unfortunately missing in TF2 as the Engineer is reduced to whacking his toys all day.

What? Who fuckin' cares?

Anyone who wants to take CTF play seriously. That's who. I can't count the number of times in TF2 where simply being able to toss the intel a few feet forward would have determined whether we capped it or not. There really is no point in trying to sacrifice your life to sentry guns to move the intel as you'll just get pushed around and end up dropping the intel in an even worse spot.

I'll give an example of its importance via TFC's ctf_well:



The above picture shows the blue flag in ctf_well being defended by a sentry gun. Next to the flag is a switch that opens the grating in the window. In most cases, the flag runner isn't going to have the time to try to destroy the sentry gun with his grenades and nails as he's going to have the other defenders on his ass. The switch for the grating is too slow to lower the grates in time for an escape. The only option is for the flag runner to grab the flag and throw it through the grating and onto the ground while he sacrifices his life to the sentry gun:



Not only is the flag now out of the sentry nest, but it's now on lower ground so the other incoming flag runners won't be vulernable due to not having to take those slow elevators back up to the flag room.

Being able to throw flags encourage map developers to come up with clever ways for the runners to move the flag around the map and encourage teamwork. There's even custom flag throwing maps in TFC to practice flag throwing plays. You can't do this with TF2.

"Ok. Let's make the flag really hard to get to, but we'll add a small window that the flag can be tossed through so that if the runner can hold onto for just a few seconds, the flag will be in the clear. We'll help the defense with tighter corridors but give the runners more paths to the window."

Surprisingly, i haven't found this to be a huge problem, and i'm really sensitive to mechanics like this.

Maybe crits were screwy before i started playing, but now they tend to kick in when you're already on a roll. On offense. For which you were just bitching about there being no incentive.

It doesn't matter whether you're on offense or defense. Your crit chance improves simply by doing damage. An engineer spews out 195 damage crit wrench attacks. That's killing 7 of the 9 classes in 1 hit all because his aimbot sentry gun racked up a few kills.

"Oh great, that sentry gun just took out 2 guys. That Engineer is going to be shitting out instant death left and right. Screw grabbing the flag. I'm going home."

Damage ranges i haven't noticed any appreciable effects for; with or without them, you're going to end up with a target lucking out with like 5hp or something after they kill you. Opportunities for damage happen so fast that there's no real envelope between them that would make or break it.

The damage the Demoman's pipes do for a direct hit are 64-132. That's a range of 68 damage and it's completely random.

"Gee. Is this pipe going to scratch me or is it going to kill me?"

Even with the melee attacks. God forbid those should ever break the mold of being completely useless.

You mean like the Pyro's useless Fireaxe? I suppose it's perfectly ok for the Sniper (a long range only class) to be able to deal a shitload of damage at point blank. Name one good deep multiplayer FPS game that has melee attacks that kill you in a few hits. Unless you have some engaging melee system like Jedi Outcast, any good developer doesn't want their shooter to devolve into melee fights.

And here's what it always comes to. Butthurt about not being able to abuse game physics to basically break the design.

They may have broken Valve's design philosophy of

"We must delete anything that we didn't intend even though it isn't broken and added a much needed chunk of depth to the game!"

but I think the physics only helped the game survive as long as it did.

I'll give an example of the advanced movement technique: Skiing.

Skiing is the technique of constantly jumping down a slope to increase speed. If you press the jump button the moment you land on the slope, then your downhill speed will be increased. It existed in both Starsiege Tribes and the TF2 beta. Here's what Dynamix and Valve did once they realized it existed in their game:

Dynamix (Tribes):

"Woah. Check out this engine exploit. We didn't intend players to move this fast. But hey, the competitive community says that it adds a ton of depth to game and our own testers believe this to be true. Let's keep it and make it an official part to our sequel Tribes 2. We'll even add in a tutorial for it in the game's training mode."

vs

Valve (TF2):

"What the hell is this engine exploit! Quick! Let's not bother testing it or see what the community thinks of it. It's obviously too hard to pull and actually requires practice! The casual kids are going to hate that! An unintentional glitch must be removed no matter how much depth it adds to the game! Good thing we're still in beta!"


Let's not forget about how they removed the Sniper's quickswitch. A Sniper's huge weakness is that he's vulnerable while scoped and releasing the bolt after firing because he's slowed down. Quickswitching is the technique of going scoped with a sniper rifle and firing a shot, followed by quickswitching to another weapon, moving to a safe area, then switch back to the sniper rifle and release the bolt while being slowed down. This was another glitch that added depth to the game.

In Counter-Strike, Valve originally removed this glitch and the backlash from the competitive community was huge. It was a huge part of CS's competitive play and the loss of depth outraged the fanbase. Not wanting to lose a good chunk of their fanbase, Valve quickly put the glitch back in. With TF2 however, when it was removed there wasn't as large of an outcry as most competitive players had already seen TF2 as a joke and were playing other games. The opposition simply wasn't large enough as TF2 had barely even established a competitive community back then.

If you're whining about TF2 being slow, not having grenades,not encouraging offense... it's because you used to play a scout and need to pout about not being able to completely circumvent a base defense as the weakest class.

Or maybe it's because I actually want the game to do good competitively and not have to rely on updates that make the game balance worse than it already is to stay popular. The game's competitive scene is certainly in jeopardy as even the top TF2 teams are saying to themselves:

"You know what. This game is a freakin' joke and Valve is making it worse with their updates. I'm going back to *insert deeper multiplayer FPS here*."

I must admit though that I am saddened that a pure flag runner was dumbed down to a simple deathmatcher. That's what TF2 is. A team deathmatch game with control points across the map that determine who respawns faster. The goal isn't speed or practicing movement skills. It's killing. Nothing more. Nothing less. What made TFC unique is what TF2 is lacking. It's just another team based shooter but with cartoony graphics.


As for TF2's balance, here's my opinion of the tiers of TFC, TF2, and the fan mod Fortress Forever. They're based on my experience of the games and the notes of the top players. Note that these tiers are based on what classes are chosen in the highest levels of play based on usefulness, not their matchups:

TFC:

S tier:
none

A tier:
none

B tier:
Medic

C tier:
Scout
Soldier
Heavy
Demoman
Engineer

D tier:
Sniper
Spy

F tier:
Pyro



TF2:

S tier: (having more than 1 per team is a bannable offense)
Medic
Demoman

A tier:
Scout

B tier:
Soldier

C tier:
Heavy
Sniper

D tier:
Spy
Engineer

F tier:
Pyro



Fortress Forever:

S tier:
none

A tier:
none

B tier:
none

C tier:
Scout
Medic
Heavy
Demoman
Engineer
Spy
Soldier
Pyro

D tier:
Sniper

F tier:
none

Note how not only did Valve not fix the Pyro for TF2, they made it even worse as the balance is all over the place. Most competitive teams with limits focus on Medics, Demomen, Soldiers and Scouts while leaving the rest behind. A Sniper may be called in if he's really good and the map is large (most of them are close quarters) or a Heavy if the opposing team is running 2 really good Scouts. Spys and Engineers are outdone by other classes in CP maps and the Pyro is just one big joke.

With Fortress Forever however, the balance is nearly spot on. Every class but the Sniper gets near equal use in competitive play. The main reason the Sniper is lower than the others is because the fast speed of Scouts and Medics makes them hard to get a shot at. Fortunately, if he nails a class in the leg with his rifle, their leg becomes crippled for a few seconds and they move incredibly slow, thus allowing him to finish them off with a headshot.

In a way, Fortress Forever is the true sequel to TFC. The game is faster, deeper, and better balanced than any Fortress game in existence. It focuses on TFC's pure CTF play with a few Offense vs Defense and Deathmatch maps included for pubs. For a simple fan-mod community that isn't getting paid, it's quite the accomplishment. Unfortunately, it has a rather small community due to it being a niche game for hardcore FPS fans. That's to be expected of any niche though.

[Jon R.]

I've been in over 100 competitive scrims and over 30 league matches in TF2 before I quit. I've watched dozens of demos of the top TF2 teams, observing their strategies and class selections. I think I might know a bit more about the game than you do.

Don't care. Convince me that competetive players aren't a giant fucking plague for any mod/game they touch and i might.

[raphael]

Don't care. Convince me that competetive players aren't a giant fucking plague for any mod/game they touch and I might.

Am I reading this on Insomnia? Something must have gone wrong.

[icycalm]

Don't care. Convince me that competetive players aren't a giant fucking plague for any mod/game they touch and i might.

If anyone so much as DARES to try to convince you of this I will ban them. This is not a forum for retards -- no one should have to convince anyone else that 1+1=2. If you do not understand that competitive players are the ones who should set the standards for every game then you don't belong here. You belong here.

Also, I deleted the rest of your comments because your tone was intolerable, and because they seemed to me stupid, what with you attempting to pass judgement on a competitive game by the standards of non-gamers.

[icycalm]

This, by the way, is not at all wrong:



Scrubs really do need new updates that are less deep than their predecessors, because that is the only way they can get closer to the good players. And the more complexity is removed, the closer the game comes to the coin toss, at which point all players become equal, and hence even the most pathetic scrub has as much chance of winning as anyone else.

[zer0kage]

This review sounds like it's based on the 360 version. If this is based on the PC version, I've never heard of the reviewer competitively. What clan does he play for?

On the subject of 3 demolition and 3 medics teams: What leagues actually allow that and may you list them please?

[icycalm]

So I guess you are saying that, apart from the obvious controller issue, there are important differences between the two versions which affect the quality of the game, and that the PC version is the superior of the two.

So, until Crazy Man gets around to answering your questions, why don't you tell us what these differences are and explain how you think they affect the game?

[zer0kage]

Thumbsticks will never be as sensitive as mouse and keyboard, especially turning 180 degrees in the opposite direction instantly. Also i personally do not know how updated the 360 versions are glitch and bug wise

The issue of not having enough buttons on the controller was one of his main cmoplaints. Considering that every source engine shooter allows you to even make very detailed scripts at the touch of the single keyboard button, which you have plenty of. This obviously doesn't carry over either.

An example of a disadvantage playing on pad lies in the basic inability to spin 180 degrees smoothly, fire a rocket to move forward to move horizontally faster than the scout at full speed, and then turn around 180 degrees again to face forward.

Doesn't that have an adverse effect on how the game plays? I'd assume almost all aerial acrobatics and manuevering are near impossible on the 360. I mean, could the named person seriously pull off conc jumping, even if he had all the buttons for it? Can he do it with thumbsticks? If he does he's godly, and he's better than 99% of the people on earth. Of course, it's obvious that the controller issue is huge since he emphasizes it so much. The fact is that almost all shooters on the 360 induce some sort of auto aim as a feeble attempt to alleviate this issue.

You can argue that a lot of the limits of competitive play are self-imposed limits roster wise. An example, is a 6v6 in a team with 9 classes. However, he hasn't mentioned Highlander at all which is a 9v9 match with 1 player of each team allocating the player to a specific class. This is where majority of the competitive scene hangs around.

Crits aren't an issue in competitive leagues because every good league has no crits. It's a selectable option that you could turn on all crits. It will be stupid but matches will still not be played out like dice rolls. Also, ask about the ctf issue and do state that the competition is almost purely played on 5cp maps with some offense/defense ones like gravelpit and dustbowl (which is somehow still played competitively in cevo). There isn't really the issue that the matches will be played in the same manner of a coin toss. The rocket will always do x damage to you and the sticky at x distance will always do x damage to you without criticals. The point is that there is still the choice to make sure damage maintains consistency for competitive play.

More options also doesn't always truly mean more depth, is what I'd argue about the different ammunition types that he is talking about.

Giving a further look into the controller issue. First off, the second slowest class is ironically the fastest class in the game especially with whip fire. Hence, this still creates an execution barrier that might even be unecessarily steeper with the inappropriate controller. This is a similar issue to the stick vs pad arguement for fighting games. However, keyboard is clearly advantageous over a 360 pad for this type of game.

[Worm]

I can respond to your comments about the controller: you've misread the review. He's not complaining that playing the game is difficult due to the number of buttons on the controller, but that Valve removed features--such as flag throwing--that were present in TFC. Those features would have been awkward or impossible to implement with the limitations of console controllers in mind, and that's probably why Valve took them out.

Scripts do nothing to help this.

[icycalm]

Yeah. He has not understood a single word from the review.

[sibladeko]

I think the thing here is this. The first thing I noticed about this review was it was in the PC section. If you want to argue in your review about the xboxification of Team Fortress 2 versus Team Fortress Classic instead of TF2 as its own entity, no problem. Then why are you making your case with the XBOX 360 version? Why would you drop this huge elephant in the way of a direct comparison between the first PC mod and it's admittedly made for PC sequel? Valve has been constantly updating the PC version with updates and bug fixes, the 360 version honestly has gotten the shaft because of the cost to update it regularly. The basis is already flawed, because we're already playing different games. Why would you do this as a former competitive TFC player, and why would you use such a version as the basis of your review? Is the sole fact that it does exist on the 360 mean that you believe Valve actively designed the entire game up with the console in mind, rather than the PC?

So now we have to go around the elephant to what you are actually saying. Here is the state of competitive PC TF2 as it stands:
1. Criticals are off, hell even damage variance is off, and that's a mechanic that has existed in FPS since DOOM.
2. Teams are usually 6v6, maybe 7v7, class limits exist, one medic, one demo, two of any other.
3. There is also an alternate league gametype called highlander, which is 9v9, one of each class and only one of each class.
4. League maps include Valve and custom maps and generally revolve around control point type maps instead of Capture the Flag.
5. Sandman is the only unlocked weapon that is banned in league play. (Except for Europe, for the time being.)

Your listed complaints:

-Fast paced CTF game was replaced with a slow Team Deathmatch game.

I will concede the pace in TF2 is slower than TFC. I will also admit that CTF is not the preferred gametype of choice anymore for TF2. However, I will not equate control point maps to TDM. CP maps are all about territorial control, your kill counts do not matter as much as you would think. Scouts honestly do not get that many kills in this gametype, their main purpose is harassment (to get medic to pop uber) and to control territory by capturing points behind team's backs. Demos again are almost all about territory control, you're not going to kill someone with a single sticky or even two (no crits, no damage variance), but you will prevent them from moving further in recklessly.

-Class-specific grenades were removed causing more class blurring and a significant loss of depth.

Class blurring? There's a reason why certain classes are better than others and almost overwhelmingly run instead of others in competitive. As for loss of depth, more options doesn't always mean more depth, but I can see why people were mad about grenade removal. This issue I think is a matter of taste.

-Advanced movement techniques were removed, significantly reducing the game's depth.

Ok now this is where the console issue rears it's ugly head. The loss of grenades from TRC made the scout and medic lose what are in effect grenade jumps. Jumping on explosives to move around faster still exists in TF2, it's just limited to two classes now, demoman and soldier. Rocket jumps are a staple of movement for any soldier worth his salt in TF2. There is the obvious vertical rocket jumps, not only to get up to high places but also during firefights to get better firing angles on targets hiding in the back. Whipfire is a technique for soldiers where you turn around 180 degrees near instantly, fire a rocket directly behind you, then "whip" back forward. It in effect allows a soldier to move faster than a scout along the ground, with the added benefit of being able to get on top of terrain obstacles such as train cars, crates etc. without sacrificing too much forward movement. Soldiers can also double jump in the air by first blasting themselves at an angle into a wall, then rocketing away from the wall.

As for the demo, he can lay a remote mine down, jump, then activate the mine to fly a great distance or height, two mines for even greater distance or height. It is admittedly simple to do sticky jumps, the only difficulty is controlling exactly where you want to go.

The scout has its own advanced movement techniques, that is the double jump and now the new weapon force of nature, which knocks both the target fired at and the user backwards. When aimed at the ground, it actually works like a small boost, allowing a scout to triple jump.

Even crouch jumping for all classes is still in, and there are plenty of trick jumps for normal classes that are exceedingly difficult, an example being the wall slide crouch jump on gravelpit side A that allows you to start on the raised exit area the attacking team comes out of.

Advanced movement methods still exist. How many people can actually do all of these maneuvers on thumbsticks?

-Several weapons were removed (and replaced with nothing) further reducing the game's depth.

Whereas the grenade issue is arguable, I strongly feel this is not. Having more weapons in an FPS really doesn't add depth at all. Just as having more moves in a fighting game doesn't mean it's a deep game. Ironically, the unlock system you hate so much is basically "adding more weapons" for the sake of depth. I believe Valve is dumb as rocks to require you to do achievements for these, but their end purpose is a noble one. It presents choice for your weapon layout. A well designed alternate weapon isn't designed to be a "replacement" but rather an "option." And there ARE plenty of well designed alternate weapons present in the game. The kritzkrieg, a healing beam for the medic, which makes its target fire pure criticals for a time instead of being invicible, but charges faster (no random criticals raises the stock of this weapon quite a bit.) The flare gun, a long range firegun that substitutes the pyro's shotgun (they upped the damage and now it is actually useful.) The force of nature, an alternate for the Scout's scattergun, which is basically a double barreled shotgun fire rate wise but also knocks back your target and gives you access to a third jump. The natasha, a minigun that slows down targets with a penalty to damage. All unlocked weapons are allowed in league play, with the exception of the sandman. Valve is constantly trying to tweak these alternate weapons also to make them viable choices.

-The balance is worse than TFC at the highest level of play.

This is something I will admit annoys me. The class balance of TF2 at competitive play levels is limited, though I have seen every class, EVEN pyros, played in 6v6 league matches, and played well. Part of me sincerely wishes that teams were made to 7v7, to open up more team combinations. There was one league that tried that, and you saw quite a few interesting team setups. Unfortunately, it also enabled criticals, which is a terrible terrible decision. I honestly wish that in the early creation of the various TF2 leagues people agreed on the 7v7 standard instead of 6v6. However, at least there is an alternate solution in highlander. Highlander is an extremely interesting gametype of one and only one of each class.

-20 second respawn timers make spawn camping a dominant strategy.

Spawn camping in a league game? You say you've played how many scrims and matches on the 360? (or pc?) Maybe with crits and 3 demos and you're on goldrush, this sounds like complaints about public play.

-Offensive capabilities were limited so turtling is encouraged.

Again this sounds like complaints about public play. Turtling will never win a map that is about controlling more territory than the other team.

-Armor was removed.

More options does not mean more depth.

-Shells, Nails, Rockets and Cells were replaced by universal ammo (picking up a pistol will magically refill your rocket launcher).

Let's not talk about realism, this was done purely for sanity issues, would you want a defensive team to have an even stronger advantage since the attackers would constantly run out of ammo?

-You can no longer throw ammo.

Ok?

-You can no longer throw the flag once you have it.

You can drop it, but yes flag throws and the whole flag throwing football was removed. I say for the better.

-Random Dice Rolls/Critical Hits were added that do three times more damage.

Complaints about public play. There are even public servers with this option off, it IS an option. As previously stated damage variance has been in almost every FPS since DOOM, and now you can even turn THAT off, and it is off in leagues.

-Also, if you are playing the console versions, good luck doing THIS with a controller.

I agree.

And finally concerning the sensationalist section you have there near the end before referencing the casual retards:

But I don't find having to grind for unlockable weapons to be fun.

AGREE

I don't find walking out of the spawn only to instantly die because some random player got a lucky die roll to be fun.

Crits, public game.

I don't find getting killed by a weapon that does random damage to be fun.

Crits, public game.

I don't find that in competitive play in 6 vs. 6 games without class limits teams consist of:

Demoman
Demoman
Demoman
Medic
Medic
Medic

vs.

Demoman
Demoman
Demoman
Medic
Medic
Medic

-- after everyone realized how awful the balance in the game was -- to be fun.

What? Considering you yourself listed the scout to be near invulnerable to everything but heavies and sentries, how does the demoman somehow take top prize? Hell I think the traditional team WITH class limits (demo, medic, 2x soldier, 2x scout) would destroy the nonsense you have listed there.

[sibladeko]

Also, at the risk of being a douche, I'd like to say there's been tons of inconsistencies in your replies.

You obviously are very knowledgable and have a huge background in TFC. However your TF2 knowledge seems to be rather schizophrenic. You claim to have played over 100 scrims and 30 competitive matches and have watched tons of demos. 100 xbox 360 tf2 scrims? Really? Competitive 360 TF2 was a dead dead game because Valve did not bother updating it for so long. On the 360 you can't even record demos nor play them back. So I'd assume you are playing this game on PC? Yet you reference the controller so often in your review of the game you seem almost convinced that Valve developed the entire game with the 360 in mind.

You mention that grenade jumps and rocket jumping are "piss easy." Yet people still fuck up both jumps, in league play, in game. You make no mention of whipfire, nor wall-jumping. These are basic moves that separate competitive from public play. You make no mention of the scouts frame intensive double crouch jump, which lets you get over the Well traincars (before the Force of Nature onlock) on the right side (not the left jump onto the lamp, that's easy) and into other weird spots.

You claim the scout only loses to the heavy and the engineer's sentry, two classes that are rarely seen in competitive play, and yet rank the demoman as the best in the game, when scouts flat out counter demomen. Why not the scout being the best in the competitive meta-game then, if its two counters aren't even seen in 6v6.

The most damning thing to me is that so many of your review remarks are about things that only exist in PUBLIC PLAY. Variable damage, crits, spawn camping, demomen being overpowered, CTF turtling, these are all constantly regurgitated day in and day out on the Steam forums like clockwork.

[icycalm]

Read the forum rules. You have twelve hours to format your posts into something legible, with proper paragraphs, punctuation, capitalization, etc. If you do not do this the posts will be deleted, and you will be banned. If you do this, you will receive a reply from me, and perhaps also, at some point, from the review's author. If you reply to this message, the posts will also be deleted and you will be banned.

The only way for you not to be banned is to edit those posts appropriately within the next twelve hours. Have a nice day.



EDIT: And because you clearly never went to high school (or perhaps you did go, but in some place like Uganda), here is a friendly tip:

This is not a paragraph:

I think the thing here is this.
The first thing I noticed about this review was it was in the PC section.
If you want to argue in your review about the xboxification of Team Fortress 2 versus Team Fortress Classic instead of TF2 as its own entity, no problem.
Then why are you making your case with the XBOX 360 version?

This is a paragraph:

I think the thing here is this. The first thing I noticed about this review was it was in the PC section. If you want to argue in your review about the xboxification of Team Fortress 2 versus Team Fortress Classic instead of TF2 as its own entity, no problem. Then why are you making your case with the XBOX 360 version?

[taub]

If you want to play Team Fortress with all the fun stuff you can check out Enemy Territory Fortress, a port of Quake 3 Fortress to the free game Enemy Territory.

There is only a very small mostly European based community left, and they play about 5 pickup games per day, mostly in the evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFA3CgV-v2I (watch in HQ)
www.kgaming.eu
#kgather on Quakenet.

[Banjooie]

My name is Banjooie, and I am a casual player of Team Fortress 2. I have never played a single tournament game, nor am I in a competitive clan. I do not at any point intend to do serious competitive play on this game, but like you, I spent fifty dollars on a compilation package known as the 'Orange Box', containing several games including Team Fortress 2. I will point out why this is relevant later in the conversation, but I am saying this now so that you all can quote it and say 'Nothing you say from here on out is relevant.'

I agree thoroughly with the reviewer when he says capture the flag is slower than it was on TFC. I did play Team Fortress Classic for a time, but I stopped because--frankly, I wasn't any good at it. I'll get to that later. There are a variety of changes that need to be made to TF2 to make CTF maps less defensive in nature. Most importantly, I would say the current iteration of 2Fort requires a variety of changes. While CTF_Well moves quickly, 2Fort on a public server becomes an absolute slog deathmatch, especially if the server admin has inexplicably turned instant respawn on.

I always thought the advanced movement techniques were pretty cool. Things like jumping on needles, and the conc grenade things I saw other players doing were pretty neat. The main problem that I had with them was that there was little way I was ever going to learn them.

Don't get me wrong, I took time to search up 'bunnyhopping', but what I primarily found was an endless series of forum threads debating whether or not it was cheating, and the effect it had on Counterstrike balance as a whole. So for somebody who wasn't in on the floor when these techniques were developed, it presented a whole new wall against playing this game; If I didn't know the techniques, I became a detriment to my team, which was markedly discouraging from actually playing the game to learn the techniques. It's a vicious circle.

Frankly, my complaints aside, I'd say right now the hardest class for technical, obscure movements would be the Spy, and I do find that a little peculiar. I suspect that elaborate trickery involving the FAN will come up soon, but currently all the bizarre skill tricks seem to involve Spy maneuevering and sidestabs and intentional facestabs. Since he isn't involved in competitive play, I don't suppose he shows up at all for you guys.

I'm a little dubious of the argument that removing weapons reduces depth. I agree that directly it does, but the more limited number of weapons makes the classes feel more distinct. The few times I played engineer (His learning curve felt astronomical to me as a new player), I was trying to figure out why he was more heavily armed than the Scout. Valve does seem to be intending to move away from achievements as a method to procure unlockables, and I do agree with this move. If it were up to me, there would be a singleplayer tutorial series of missions you would use that would show you the basics of how the weapon was intended to be used, and upon completion you would earn the weapon.

The answer to demoman spawn camping is often a ban on many servers, but I honestly just don't see it that often in casual play. Then again, I remember spawn camping being fairly popular on casual servers in TFC, but I didn't play competitively.

I want the same depth of game you do. I really do. I may be a casual, I may never be good at this game--but I do want to have the same depth..the trick is I want to be able to enjoy the same game as you. If you kill me because I ain't moving my mouse fast enough to keep the crosshairs on you..I'm cool with that. I really am.

Can I delve into WoW a bit? [No, hence comments were deleted. --icy]

This seem clear to anyone?

[icycalm]

Okay, so I am now going to reply to the retarded posts by zer0kage and sibladeko, and also to the slightly less retarded post by Banjooie. I make no excuses for my harsh language: it is perfectly clear that all three of you guys are very VERY stupid, and I have a policy in this forum of deleting the posts of stupid people and banning them. Be thankful then that your accounts are still active and that your posts will remain on the page -- but in order for this to be so it must be made clear to the readers of this website how stupid you are and how retarded your posts -- which leads us to my harsh language. This thread has already been cleaned off of thousands of words by half a dozen other morons, and since this situation seems to be ongoing (the review is still getting about 500 visitors a day from the Steam forums), I am now going to put an end to it by clearing up some issues for you retards -- issues, it must be noted, that I shouldn't have to fucking clear up because they are so simple and fundamental that they are supposed to go without saying -- but not, I guess, in retard-land, which is where you guys must be coming from.

So, zer0kage first.

Thumbsticks will never be as sensitive as mouse and keyboard, especially turning 180 degrees in the opposite direction instantly.

Thanks, retard. Because we didn't already know that. We were all just waiting here, counting the days and the hours until you would show up to explain it to us.

The issue of not having enough buttons on the controller was one of his main complaints.

No, it wasn't. Learn to fucking read. What he said in his review is that TF2 was designed with consoles in mind, hence with a system which would work equally well with a controller, hence with a severely dumbed down system.

An example of a disadvantage playing on pad lies in the basic inability to spin 180 degrees smoothly, fire a rocket to move forward to move horizontally faster than the scout at full speed, and then turn around 180 degrees again to face forward.

More common sense knowledge presented as if it was some kind of a revelation. I guess it must seem like a revelation, if you are a retard.

Doesn't that have an adverse effect on how the game plays?

I don't know cousin Merle, maybe we should ask aunt May what she thinks.

I'd assume almost all aerial acrobatics and manuevering are near impossible on the 360. I mean, could the named person seriously pull off conc jumping, even if he had all the buttons for it? Can he do it with thumbsticks? If he does he's godly, and he's better than 99% of the people on earth. Of course, it's obvious that the controller issue is huge since he emphasizes it so much. The fact is that almost all shooters on the 360 induce some sort of auto aim as a feeble attempt to alleviate this issue.

More common sense stuff THAT WAS ALSO MENTIONED IN THE REVIEW.

Oh, but yes, you can't read -- sorry, I forgot about that.

You can argue that a lot of the limits of competitive play are self-imposed limits roster wise. An example, is a 6v6 in a team with 9 classes. However, he hasn't mentioned Highlander at all which is a 9v9 match with 1 player of each team allocating the player to a specific class. This is where majority of the competitive scene hangs around.

So Highlander is an alternate league gametype. And the majority of the competitive scene hangs around A SINGLE GAMETYPE? And this, in your tiny little brain, is supposed to count FOR the game and not AGAINST it?

I don't have lols big enough.

Crits aren't an issue in competitive leagues because every good league has no crits. It's a selectable option that you could turn on all crits.

All you are doing here is saying that you agree with the reviewer. He says crits shouldn't have been in the game, the players are saying it (by banning them from their leagues), and you are saying it. So stop pretending to disagree with arguments you obviously agree with. It makes you look stupid.

There isn't really the issue that the matches will be played in the same manner of a coin toss.

Nobody said that, moron. The coin toss comment should be taken in the context of the post in which it was made -- read the fucking post, then read the fucking article it links to, and try to fucking understand what the fucking article and the fucking post are saying for fuck's sake.

The rocket will always do x damage to you and the sticky at x distance will always do x damage to you without criticals. The point is that there is still the choice to make sure damage maintains consistency for competitive play.

ALL play is competitive. Therefore, we shouldn't have to set up our own servers and run our own leagues in order for the game to "maintain consistency" for competitive play. The game should maintain consistency out of the box, with no modifications necessary.

More options also doesn't always truly mean more depth, is what I'd argue about the different ammunition types that he is talking about.

You "would argue"? How would you argue that, fuckface? By saying "I would argue"? That's not a fucking argument for fuck's sake. Where the fuck is your argument? Am I supposed to attempt to imagine it?

...

That was the reply to retard #1. Stay tuned for the reply to retard #2. And don't nobody fucking DARE post anything in this thread until I am done.

[icycalm]

If you want to argue in your review about the xboxification of Team Fortress 2 versus Team Fortress Classic instead of TF2 as its own entity, no problem.

"As its own entity", lol, you fucking retard. THIS IS A REVIEW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. There ARE no fucking "own entities" in reviews -- in reviews YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO COMPARE GAMES YOU FUCKING FUCKFACED RETARD!

Then why are you making your case with the XBOX 360 version?

Because the reason the game was dumbed down was because it was designed with the Xbox 360 version in mind, retard.

Why would you drop this huge elephant in the way of a direct comparison between the first PC mod and it's admittedly made for PC sequel?

"Admittedly made for PC", lol. In retard-land, maybe.

Valve has been constantly updating the PC version with updates and bug fixes, the 360 version honestly has gotten the shaft because of the cost to update it regularly. The basis is already flawed, because we're already playing different games. Why would you do this as a former competitive TFC player, and why would you use such a version as the basis of your review? Is the sole fact that it does exist on the 360 mean that you believe Valve actively designed the entire game up with the console in mind, rather than the PC?

At last! A tiny shaft of light at the end of this retard's brain!

So now we have to go around the elephant to what you are actually saying.

What "elephant" you fucking dipshit retard? You don't have to go around any elephants -- you just have to read the fucking review and use your tiny brain to try and fucking understand it.

Here is the state of competitive PC TF2 as it stands:
1. Criticals are off, hell even damage variance is off

So you agree with the reviewer, zer0kage and the rest of the players the criticals were a bad idea. Good. Everyone agrees on this, SO NO FUCKING NEED TO KEEP PRETENDING THAT YOU DON'T.

2. Teams are usually 6v6, maybe 7v7, class limits exist, one medic, one demo, two of any other.

Which validates the reviewer's arguments that without class limits everyone would be using medics and demomans (which they seem to be, when there are no class limits), and that therefore the game is broken in at least this respect.

3. There is also an alternate league gametype called highlander, which is 9v9, one of each class and only one of each class.

zer0kage mentioned this too. So everyone seems to be in agreement that without class limits and this alternate league, the game is broken as fuck. Isn't it nice when everyone agrees on something? We can all be friends then.

4. League maps include Valve and custom maps and generally revolve around control point type maps instead of Capture the Flag.

Which, again, validates what the reviewer says in the first few lines of his review.

Your listed complaints:

-Fast paced CTF game was replaced with a slow Team Deathmatch game.

I will concede the pace in TF2 is slower than TFC. I will also admit that CTF is not the preferred gametype of choice anymore for TF2.

Again, more agreement. This is very heart-warming.

-Class-specific grenades were removed causing more class blurring and a significant loss of depth.

Class blurring?

Yes, what are you, a parrot? "Class blurring", "class blurring", "class blurring", "class blurring", "class blurring", "class blurring", etc.

There's a reason why certain classes are better than others and almost overwhelmingly run instead of others in competitive.

This fucking sentence has absolutely nothing to do with the reviewer's comment that you were replying to, and is also nonsense into the bargain.

As for loss of depth, more options doesn't always mean more depth

We know this retard, but in THIS case, the reviewer says THEY DO. If you think they don't, THEN YOU MUST PROVIDE REASONS, FUCKFACE!

This issue I think is a matter of taste.

ALL issues are a "matter of taste". And the reviewer has clearly explained the way his taste works. Too bad the same cannot be said for all the inarticulate retards who have posted in this thread.

-Advanced movement techniques were removed, significantly reducing the game's depth.

Ok now this is where the console issue rears it's ugly head. The loss of grenades from TRC made the scout and medic lose what are in effect grenade jumps. Jumping on explosives to move around faster still exists in TF2, it's just limited to two classes now, demoman and soldier.

So, loss of complexity. Still agreeing with the reviewer.

-Several weapons were removed (and replaced with nothing) further reducing the game's depth.

Whereas the grenade issue is arguable, I strongly feel this is not. Having more weapons in an FPS really doesn't add depth at all.

lol. In retard-land, maybe.

Just as having more moves in a fighting game doesn't mean it's a deep game.

That is exactly what it usually means. There are exceptions, but in that case YOU MUST EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHY THEY ARE EXCEPTIONS.

-The balance is worse than TFC at the highest level of play.

This is something I will admit annoys me.

More agreement. And you can dispense with the "I will admit", because your entire post is nothing but you admitting that you agree with everything you understood from the review, and disagree with everything you did not understand because of poor reading comprehension skills and limited intelligence.

-20 second respawn timers make spawn camping a dominant strategy.

Spawn camping in a league game? You say you've played how many scrims and matches on the 360? (or pc?) Maybe with crits and 3 demos and you're on goldrush, this sounds like complaints about public play.

And what if it is? I have no idea if it is or if it isn't, but there is no reason why "public play" should be broken.

-Offensive capabilities were limited so turtling is encouraged.

Again this sounds like complaints about public play.

See above.

-Armor was removed.

More options does not mean more depth.

It obviously does in this case, retard. If you think it doesn't you have to provide the bane to the blabber-mouth: reasons.

-Shells, Nails, Rockets and Cells were replaced by universal ammo (picking up a pistol will magically refill your rocket launcher).

Let's not talk about realism

It's not an issue of realism -- it is an issue of complexity.

-You can no longer throw ammo.

Ok?

This is the kind of response (i.e. non-response) which gets people banned from here. One more response like this and you are gone.

-You can no longer throw the flag once you have it.

You can drop it, but yes flag throws and the whole flag throwing football was removed. I say for the better.

No one gives a rat's ass what some retard like you says. If you have arguments, post them. If not, go suck your mom's cock you stupid piece of shit.

-Random Dice Rolls/Critical Hits were added that do three times more damage.

Complaints about public play.

Yes, and since public games are very important, this is a problem which should be fixed. Glad to see you guys are still agreeing.

I don't find walking out of the spawn only to instantly die because some random player got a lucky die roll to be fun.

Crits, public game.

Still agreeing with the reviewer, I see.

I don't find getting killed by a weapon that does random damage to be fun.

Crits, public game.

Awesome, more agreement.

What? Considering you yourself listed the scout to be near invulnerable to everything but heavies and sentries, how does the demoman somehow take top prize?

You yourself have already stated that demomans are limited in games with class limits. This is proof enough of their brokenness.

Hell I think the traditional team WITH class limits (demo, medic, 2x soldier, 2x scout) would destroy the nonsense you have listed there.

This doesn't make any sense. If that was true there would be no need for class limits.

...

Now I am going to go get some dinner, and then I'll be back to finish with this retard's second post, and the next retard.

[icycalm]

Also, at the risk of being a douche, I'd like to say there's been tons of inconsistencies in your replies.

I haven't spotted any, and you haven't managed to point out a single one. All the "inconsistencies" you have pointed out have actually been points which you have failed to understand.

You obviously are very knowledgable and have a huge background in TFC. However your TF2 knowledge seems to be rather schizophrenic.

That is how it looks to you because of all the "inconsistencies" you keep inventing. If you understood what the man was saying, you would see that he is very coherent and that there's nothing schizophrenic about his viewpoint. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said of you and zer0kage, since both of you keep screaming "I DISAGREE!", "I DISAGREE!", while 80%+ of your points are in agreement with his.

Meh, retards.

Yet you reference the controller so often in your review of the game you seem almost convinced that Valve developed the entire game with the 360 in mind.

Already covered this several times. If you do not realize that Valve indeed developed the entire game with the 360 in mind, then you should not be posting in this forum. Try gamefaqs or the Steam forums instead.

You mention that grenade jumps and rocket jumping are "piss easy." Yet people still fuck up both jumps, in league play, in game.

Nietzsche and Baudrillard, for me, are "piss easy". Yet there are barely five people on the planet who understand them. Do you understand, retard? "Piss easy" is a relative concept. What is piss easy to me or the reviewer might not be to your mother or to a monkey, get it?

You make no mention of whipfire, nor wall-jumping.

He also makes no mention of the fact that the population of Nigeria is 148,000,000. A review is not a Wikipedia article. The reviewer wants to make some points, and he will only bring up whatever facts pertain to them. He will not regurgitate random facts just for the hell of it. So if he did not mention "whipfire" or "wall-jumping" it must have been because he had nothing to say about them. If YOU have something to say about them, then fucking say it, retard. But of course you don't, so you didn't. Quelle surprise!

You make no mention of the scouts frame intensive double crouch jump, which lets you get over the Well traincars (before the Force of Nature onlock) on the right side (not the left jump onto the lamp, that's easy) and into other weird spots.

See above.

You claim the scout only loses to the heavy and the engineer's sentry, two classes that are rarely seen in competitive play, and yet rank the demoman as the best in the game

We've already talked about this. It's not just the reviewer who thinks the demoman is overpowered -- it's the entire competitive community, which has limited his class because of it.

The most damning thing to me is that so many of your review remarks are about things that only exist in PUBLIC PLAY.

I've already covered this numerous times, but once again: public pay is important. There is no excuse for having shit public play, and whoever is making excuses for Valve is a retard. Funnily enough, those are the same retards who are screaming that TF2 is supposed to me better for beginners. Where's the logic in this? On the one hand you care about the beginners, on the other hand you say: "Hey, who gives a fuck about the beginners and their public play?"

Classic case of retardation: each sentence refutes the one that came before it. See also here:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/i ... in_nigeria

[icycalm]

And now we finally come to the last moron.

The main problem that I had with them was that there was little way I was ever going to learn them.

That is your problem, a problem which no one else gives a shit about.

So for somebody who wasn't in on the floor when these techniques were developed, it presented a whole new wall against playing this game

Good. And the more such walls the better.

If I didn't know the techniques, I became a detriment to my team, which was markedly discouraging from actually playing the game to learn the techniques. It's a vicious circle.

There's nothing "vicious" about the process of learning and improving in a game. If you want to see "vicious", go to Rwanda you fucking retard. This is a fucking videogame for christsake. How much more retarded can you get?

I'm a little dubious of the argument that removing weapons reduces depth. I agree that directly it does

Good, so there's nothing to debate about.

The few times I played engineer (His learning curve felt astronomical to me as a new player)

No one cares.

I want the same depth of game you do. I really do. I may be a casual, I may never be good at this game--but I do want to have the same depth...

Lies. Every word you say contradicts them.

the trick is I want to be able to enjoy the same game as you.

Translation: I want something that is physically impossible and logically inconsistent.

Reply: Go fuck yourself, retard.

If you kill me because I ain't moving my mouse fast enough to keep the crosshairs on you... I'm cool with that. I really am.

No one cares: you are still dead, and that's all that matters.

Can I delve into WoW a bit?

No, which is why I deleted all the rest of your post.

This seem clear to anyone?

I am sure your ignorant, naive, logically inconsistent, and downright stupid views seem perfectly clear to other fuckjobs like you. As for me and the regular posters of this forum, the answer would have to be: yes, clear as mud -- the mud that fills the inside of your brain.

[icycalm]

So that takes care of the three retards. Now listen up carefully: this thread has seen more retardation in the last couple of days, than the entire forum has seen since its inception -- but this is where it ends. Anyone posting after this will have to make 100% sense, otherwise he will be immediately permabanned with no appeal. I don't care if Jesus Christ or God himself attempts to post here: if your replies are not 100% intelligent, knowledgeable, lucid, and straight to the point, I WILL FUCKING BAN YOU AND SIGN UP YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS TO A BUNCH OF SCAT-PORN MAILING LISTS. Besides, there is an entire sub-forum here devoted to retards, so if you are a retard you can simply post your mindless chatter there:

http://forum.insomnia.ac/viewforum.php?f=17

Moreover, let me remind anyone reading this thread (and especially the retards coming from the Steam forums) that TF2 was given three stars, a rating which according to this website's rating scheme is pretty good. Here is what the ratings stand for:

***** Highly recommended
**** Recommended
*** Good, but has been done before, and much better
** Playable, but without much merit
* LOL

So, from the review and all the comments I have read so far, I'd say that "good, but has been done before, and much better" is a perfect description of the game.

That's all for now. It would be nice if Crazy Man showed up here and took a little time to reply to some of the points raised, but he wrote this review over a month ago, and I haven't seen him around since. Still, this thread will remain here until the end of human civilization, so I am sure that whenever Crazy Man makes his return he will drop by and post a few comments. Until then, we will all remain right here, patiently waiting for him. Keep pressing that refresh button, and one day it will happen.

[icycalm]

Some comments re: the Scout update:

Valve has patched the game twice since the Scout update, yet the Sandman remains unfixed (although they did manage to break rocket jumping while trying to fix an exploit that made it harder for Snipers to get headshots, and they did break Natascha’s slowdown effect yet again). I’ve played in a few big games since the update, and I’d say the stun is overpowered even if you discount the fact that it affects ubercharges. I have not yet seen a single Scout that doesn’t try to tag me with the ball the moment I see them, and in a few circumstances they’ve managed to stun me for extended periods at close range, allowing them a free kill. One particular incident that comes to mind occurred on the second point of the second stage of Dustbowl – I was playing Soldier and standing on the point when a Scout ran out from the central tunnel, ran up to the point and threw his ball at me. I was stunned for a good 3 seconds or so, and this was from being tagged at close range.

The response from the competitive community has been very clear. CEVO has banned the Sandman, and from what I’ve heard a bunch of the other leagues like ETF2L have followed suit. Keep in mind that this is the first unlockable weapon that they’ve actually banned. If I recall correctly they didn’t even ban the Pyro’s Backburner back when it granted a ridiculous 50-point health bonus.

The response from the rest of the TF2 community has been less distinct. While there are a few players who recognise that the weapon is clearly overpowered, the vast majority of the community’s response has been ‘LOL LERN2TEAMWORK.’ By this they’re implying that somehow Pyros need to have their entire team with them when they try to circle behind enemy lines to attempt an ambush, so that they can successfully fend off a class that they were previously on a reasonably even footing against. And of course, if your Medic successfully builds up an ubercharge by being a good healer and deploys it on a friendly Demoman in order to take out a Sentry farm, only to have his uber rendered useless by a flying baseball, that’s his fault for not being a team player.

Surely the absurdity is obvious.

I’m hoping that, like they did with the Backburner, Valve will realise what a terrible beast they’ve unleashed and make some sort of fix. A popular suggestion seems to be to change the stun effect to something akin to the effect of Team Fortress Classic’s concussion grenades, but honestly I think they need to go back to the drawing board with this unlock. Never mind that there are a few achievements that depend on it – go back to the design phase and get it right this time. And for God’s sake stop getting your unlock ideas from the Steam forums.

I’m starting to wonder if I should be playing Fortress Forever instead…

http://www.sonictempest.net/2009/03/13/ ... -and-ends/

[Banjooie]

Actually, wait, no. I think I see what you're trying to say here, and I can agree with the basic tenets of pretty much all of it, in that you've lost--well, not lost, but somehow not gained another--game you liked.

I admit, it took reading the review a few times, but it makes a lot more sense the way it's written from the rest of the site. This isn't so much 'TF2 is a horrible terrible game noone should play' as 'TF2 is not half the game it could be, what the hell' and I'd be really hardpressed by any stretch of the imagination to disagree.

Do I have it right now?