[PC] [MAC] [360] [PS3] Team Fortress 2

[Molloy]

Team Fortress 2 is the culmination of everything that's wrong with FPS games nowadays. Trying to play an FPS on a joypad is the equivalent of trying to play Street Fighter 2 on a PC keyboard.

I loved Counter Strike when it came out first, but it has an awful lot to answer for. It's all about controlling space and map territory. The games that came before that like Quake, Half Life Deathmatch and TFC were about movement. They were 3D platformers with shooting.

In recent years pretty much every FPS has taken it's cues from Counter Strike, because an analogue stick can't track enemies that are moving quickly. Particularly if they're moving up and down in the z-axis. So most console FPS games don't have weapons movement (rocket launchers, gauss guns, conc grenades) that launch people into the air and have predominantly flat levels.

The one exception is Halo which bucks the trend by having lots of fast moving vehicles and flying opponents. That's probably why it's the only console FPS worth a damn but I haven't played it on a highly competitive level so maybe I'm wrong.

[icycalm]

Some comments from the Steam forums that come from reasonably intelligent human beings for a change:

If the competitive players don't set the standards, you get a game, pretty much like what TF2 is/was. Pyro infested servers with no falloff and +50hp backburners, you get crits, bodyshot snipers, sticky/rocket/nade spamming, etc.

All the best games in the world are catered to the competitive. Starcraft, is a fuckiing classic, totally competitive, but the game is a blast to play even today. Counterstrike (that C word that all the tf2 pubbers hate), far more popular than TF2 will ever dream to be, is catered to the competitive. Quake, huge competitive game, tons of fun.

Heck what do you think would happen if real sports like baseball, football, etc and the official rules were changed to that of the "casual players". The games would suck, that's what.

Competitive communities make great games, and this is why TF2 will never be a classic unless valve makes some major changes. You think its a great game now, but just wait a few years when something newer comes out, you'll realize it hasn't aged well at all.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... ost9467239

Tournament players are typically the ones who are the most skilled at the game. Games should be balanced based on what a skilled player can do, because people strive to become good at a game, not bad. The natural evolution of the game will cause an upwards shift of skill level among everyone. If you balance the game and make it interesting at a very high skill level, then people will enjoy the game more as they become better at it. If you balance it for the scrubs, then the game becomes worse to play as people play it more. I'll take a fun, deep, and interesting game over a dull, shallow, random game any time.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... ost9467268

All stuff that has already been mentioned in articles and/or forum posts on this site, but it doesn't hurt to have it repeated, especially in this thread, which seems to act as a magnet for the entire internet's retard population.

Note that the second guy has made a pretty massive mistake, where he says that "If you balance it for the scrubs", etc. The point is not that developers are "balancing" the game for the scrubs -- there's no such thing as "balancing for scrubs", rather "unbalancing it for them", if anything -- the point is that designers are removing complexity altogether. They are not attempting to balance the complexity -- they are outright removing it, so that the distance between best and worst possible players will be diminished, which is what bad players want in order to feel better for themselves (see also here).

Two more articles that casual retards going through this thread should also read before attempting to post here:

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/dominatio ... cheapness/

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/dominatio ... or_part_1/

I know, I know -- "But aren't these games supposed to be about fun!?" Remember where you first heard that sentiment? When you were on a little-league team that sucked. It was the coach's pre-game "pep talk" to soften the impact of the beating you all knew you were about to take. While I agree that Osaki may have bordered on unhealthy, and of course there's nothing wrong with having fun -- my concern is to point out the way in which so many scrubs use the idea of "having fun" as an excuse to never really get any good; to hide their inability to really play. They can pretend to laugh off their losses because they were "just having fun". So why bother? It's another of those cheap devices for soothing their own damaged egos. Not only will these guys never be real competitors (they like to take a pathetic "moral high-ground" on this one, claiming: "Well if that's what it takes, then I don't want to win! I'll never give up having fun!"), but they actually miss out on the best kind of reward these games have to offer. There's something deeply satisfying about seeing these games played truly well. It has a kind of beauty all its own. A well-played match has a flow like nothing else -- that you'll never see just screwing around, no matter how big the combos or how wacky the tactics. "Fun" is used not only as an excuse for lazy slop play, it's also (of course) used against certain tactics. Usually those same tactics that make you work to get around them. This is a new kind of sadness all its own, as in the vast majority of cases, counter tactics exist. Finding these, and the back and forth of complex tactics, is one of the greatest pleasures these games offer. But no -- we should give that up for the "fun" of being able to slap our buttons the same ways we used to. Scrubs.

Finally, the idea that you can't win and have fun at the same time needs to be exposed as the mysterious scrub propaganda that it is. Osaki, at least, was having fun. There are a lot of aspects to "fun", not least of which is the special joy of winning a serious competition. Look at the faces of everyone in the Olympics (the ones who aren't already sitting on fat million dollar "I don't have to care what happens" contracts, anyway) -- is anyone having fun? You ever see anything other than those scary "for the judges" smiles? No. The only time you see these hardcore competitors really smile is following... what? A dominating performance. One where they know they've just done exactly what they needed to do -- for themselves, team, country. Fortunately, SF tournaments (and SF generally) have a lot more opportunities for fun than this. Most every top player I know has a ton of fun playing these games -- and unquestionably more than the losing, button-slapping scrubs who console themselves by thinking the winner must have "given up his humanity" or some nonsense to get that good. In fact, groups of top players have more fun playing these games, hanging out at the arcade, than any other group I've ever seen playing, and I've seen a lot. The idea that fun can't go together with winning isn't just confused, it's exactly wrong. These guys are playing the game better, more satisfyingly, seeing more in it, and getting to beat everyone down at the same time. Fun.

[Detail]

Before I say anything else, I want to make it clear that TF2 on the XBOX360 and TF2 on the PC are vastly different. TF2 is a game that should never have been ported to consoles. Compared to a mouse, thumbsticks are too clumsy for something that requires precise control and has no autoaim (That's not to say people can't become good even under these restrictions). TF2 makes full use of a keyboard, and as such does not translate onto a controller very well. I use at the bare minimum, 14 keys not including voice commands. A 360 controller only has 12 buttons, two being thumbsticks, further adding to awkwardness as pressing them interrupts movement.
This is made worse by the fact that Valve struggled to update the console version thanks to a DLC platform owned by Microsoft, leaving no bugs or exploits fixed and no content or balances implemented.

There are a lot of things in TF2 that are wrong or could be better, but there are a lot of good sides too. I haven't played TFC outside of a few times back before steam (the platform, not the community) existed, but I do still regularly play TF2 (PC version) in competetive ladders and tournament play, as well as public games. So I'll comment on your points as best I can.

-Fast paced CTF game was replaced with a slow Team Deathmatch game.

CTF is still fast-paced, and is a gametype that takes far more teamwork than 5-point-cp, payload and attack/defend, due to players having to rapidly switch between offensive and defensive roles. It only comes close to "Team Deathmatch" on those 24/7 2Fort servers, which are quite frankly, a joke. Probably because the majority of players can't muster the effort to work as a team, and don't realise that 4 snipers on each battlement isn't any use. In high-level/league play, ctf is by far the harshest gametype. Skilled teams with good teamwork will win every time. In the other gametypes, teamwork and synergy aren't nearly as crucial.

-Class-specific grenades were removed causing more class blurring and a significant loss of depth.

I don't see any "class blurring" in TF2. The only classes that are remotely similar are the soldier and the demoman, and even then, they have very different roles and counters. I admit that giving 3 of the classes shotguns as a sidearm was lazy on Valve's part (and I would have liked to have seen more creative options), but they still do very different jobs. A pyro will use a shotgun on a retreating enemy outside of flamethrower range. A heavy will only use a shotgun if he's out of ammo (unlikely), or is alone against an enemy that has access to cover, or needs to chase down a sniper and interrupt his aim to stop him getting a headshot. Soldiers just use the shotgun as a last-resort if they don't have the chance to reload. Engineers have it as their primary, but they shouldn't be running about on the front lines too much, lest they are unable to defend their equipment vital to the team. All four classes have very different uses for the weapon.

-Advanced movement techniques were removed, significantly reducing the game's depth.

I'd really have to get Valve's opinion on this, but I'm pretty sure they intended TF2 to be slower and more strategic than its predecessor. A slower game has less uses for advanced movement techniques. TF2 still has rocketjumping, stickyjumping and the scout's double/triple jump. All classes can also crouchjump. I'm sure if Valve had wanted medics to be zooming around the map at high speeds, they'd have included grenades.

-Several weapons were removed (and replaced with nothing) further reducing the game's depth.

Several weapons have also been added (replacing nothing with new stuff), further increasing the game's depth.

-The balance is worse than TFC at the highest level of play.

I haven't played TFC at a high level, and wouldn't know how balanced it was, but TF2 itself is not unbalanced. In terms of tournament/league play, I don't see anything particularly wrong with the balance (Ignoring the sandman, which is banned almost everywhere, for what should be obvious reasons). Every class has roles that are useful, depending on the map, the enemy team, and what is happening at the time, although some classes are more specific and harder to play at a high level, such as spy or sniper.

If you remove limits, any team that runs all one class, or 3 medics 3 demos, as you cleverly pointed out earlier, will get steamrolled by any team that knows what they're doing. A well-balanced team would only have to adjust slightly by swapping a player or two to scout, and the above team would find it very hard to win. I've played 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8, as well as highlander, in all gametypes. 6v6 is usually has class restrictions, although I've played both 7v7 and 8v8 with none, and seen all sorts of team combinations have success. Merely running two soldiers, two demomen a heavy a medic and a scout will not win you a match. It'd make for a strong offensive team, but other combinations would be more effective against it.

-20 second respawn timers make spawn camping a dominant strategy.

Respawn timers are not constant, are generally set by the map, and can be changed by the server operator. That said, unless there is a clear imbalance of skill between the two teams, spawncamping isn't a viable tactic. Trying to send a demoman past enemy lines, to an enemy spawnpoint in hopes of cutting off their reinforcements usually isn't worth it. Firstly, it takes one player away from your team, that demoman is likely to be stopped or killed on the way, and if seen, all the enemy has to do is send a scout back to deal with him. Secondly, enemies respawn in waves, so it's not unlikely that you will bump into two respawned people before you have a chance to set up sticky traps. Thirdly, most spawns also have multiple exits, exits that can be shot out of but not entered by the enemy, or there may simply be multiple spawns. Not to mention if a demoman times his detonation wrong, he'll be in another bad situation. Spawncamping can win games, but isn't a widely-used tactic in high-level play among teams of similar skill, as the chances to spawncamp are limited and risky.

-Offensive capabilities were limited so turtling is encouraged.

Again, I haven't played TFC much, but offensive capabilities in TF2 seem in no way limited. Even the defensive classes (Heavy, Demoman, Engineer) will still fit into offensive roles.

As for it being encouraged, unless you're playing to lose or stalemate, turtling is far from encouraged. Turtling will not get you anywhere in competetive play. Defense is necessary, but defending without attempting to counterattack is not going to help. If you're say, leading 4-2 in a game of CTF, you'd secure victory better by attempting to extend your lead than you would trying to maintain the current score.

-Armor was removed.

This is a fair point, although armor adds no more depth than say overheal.

-Shells, Nails, Rockets and Cells were replaced by universal ammo (picking up a pistol will magically refill your rocket launcher).

This simply reduces clutter. Having separate ammotypes for rockets, needles, bullets, shells, stickybombs, pipebombs, fuel, flares, minigun rounds and rifle bullets wouldn't be very practical (and if we want to argue about realism, I don't think TFC or TF2 are the games we should be playing).

-You can no longer throw ammo.

Well yes, removing separate ammo removed the need to throw it.

-You can no longer throw the flag once you have it.

This may be a change from TFC, but it doesn't necessarily reduce complexity. If you need to give the intel to another player (usually a scout or someone faster than you), you merely have to drop it as they run past. If the option of throwing it isn't there, you just have to think of different ways to extract the intel from the enemy base. It also makes scouts more valuable in intel running, as the only thing that can easily stop them once they're out is another scout or a well-placed shot from a sniper.

-Random Dice Rolls/Critical Hits were added that do three times more damage.

About random damage and criticals, those are both options server-owners can choose to have on or off, and in high-level play, they are always off. Yes, this means you can't argue against criticals. If you dislike them, noone is forcing you to play with them. There are a large number of public servers with crits and even damage spread disabled. Also, random criticals are double damage, not triple. Sniper headshots are the only criticals that do triple damage, and they require skill, not luck.

-Also, if you are playing the console versions, good luck doing THIS with a controller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ym97gIn ... re=related
No videos of him scouting/soldiering, but I've seen some pretty ridiculous stuff. That said, TF2 PC shouldn't be compared to TF2 360, for obvious reasons.

Also, melee attacks are used for the same purpose in TF2. Noone in their right mind would switch to melee in the face of an armed opponent unless they knew they were on very low hp. Melee is really just a defense against spies, a last resort in other situations, or something to kill enemies with in the short humiliation time after you've won.

[icycalm]

Oh what a surprise! Yet another fucking retard.

I'll take it real slow with you, because you are at least reasonably polite, but pay attention.

Before I say anything else, I want to make it clear that TF2 on the XBOX360 and TF2 on the PC are vastly different. TF2 is a game that should never have been ported to consoles.

Nonsense. Porting games is fine, as long as the original game is not being developed with the (necessarily downgraded) ports in mind.

Compared to a mouse, thumbsticks are too clumsy for something that requires precise control and has no autoaim

AS IF THIS HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT A MILLION TIMES IN THE REVIEW, THIS THREAD, AND THE ENTIRE INTERNET ALREADY. THANKS FOR THE HEADS-UP, RETARD!

(That's not to say people can't become good even under these restrictions).

And of course the retarded disclaimer. AS IF ANYONE NEEDS THAT TO BE POINTED OUT TO THEM. YES, RETARD, OF COURSE THEY CAN BECOME GOOD UNDER THESE RESTRICTIONS -- OR ANY OTHER RESTRICTIONS IMAGINABLE. GOOD -- BUT ALWAYS ONLY UP TO THE POINT ALLOWED BY THE RESTRICTIONS!

TF2 makes full use of a keyboard, and as such does not translate onto a controller very well. I use at the bare minimum, 14 keys not including voice commands. A 360 controller only has 12 buttons, two being thumbsticks, further adding to awkwardness as pressing them interrupts movement.

More stuff that's already been talked about. Thanks for dumping in my forum!

There are a lot of things in TF2 that are wrong or could be better, but there are a lot of good sides too.

Too bad you don't know about them and therefore can't explain them to us, since you've never played TFC and are therefore incapable of comparing them!

I haven't played TFC outside of a few times back before steam (the platform, not the community) existed, but I do still regularly play TF2 (PC version) in competetive ladders and tournament play, as well as public games. So I'll comment on your points as best I can.

Which, given your lack of experience in the games you are hopelessly trying to compare, is not saying much!

-Class-specific grenades were removed causing more class blurring and a significant loss of depth.

I don't see any "class blurring" in TF2.

Of course you don't, retard. He is comparing classes in TFC to TF2, a comparison which you are incapable of making!

-Advanced movement techniques were removed, significantly reducing the game's depth.

I'd really have to get Valve's opinion on this

You can take Valve's opinion and stick it up your fucking ass, retard! No one gives a fuck about the developer's opinion here. If we were, we'd be posting in the Steam forum instead!

but I'm pretty sure they intended TF2 to be slower and more strategic than its predecessor.

No one cares what they "intended". And perhaps Wii Fit was intended to be boring -- but who cares! It's still shit and that's all that matters!

And lol at the "more strategic" nonsense. I guess "slower" translates to "more strategic" in retard-land.

TF2 still has rocketjumping, stickyjumping and the scout's double/triple jump.

And so what? It still has those, but it doesn't have the ones that were removed. And that is the entire point.

-Armor was removed.

This is a fair point, although armor adds no more depth than say overheal.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MATTER? THE MAN IS SAYING THAT THE REMOVAL OF ARMOR REDUCED THE DEPTH. THAT IS ALL HE IS SAYING FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

-Shells, Nails, Rockets and Cells were replaced by universal ammo (picking up a pistol will magically refill your rocket launcher).

This simply reduces clutter.

YES, AND SO WOULD REMOVING ALL THE WEAPONS. LET'S REMOVE ALL THE WEAPONS THEN TO REDUCE CLUTTER!

Fucking retard.

Having separate ammotypes for rockets, needles, bullets, shells, stickybombs, pipebombs, fuel, flares, minigun rounds and rifle bullets wouldn't be very practical

YES, LIKE IT WASN'T IN TFC. GREAT REASONING THERE, EINSTEIN!

(and if we want to argue about realism, I don't think TFC or TF2 are the games we should be playing).

WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH ALL THE SCRUBS AND REALISM? NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT REALISM YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT -- I'VE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS RETARDED OBJECTION. IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF REALISM -- IT IS A QUESTION OF COMPLEXITY FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

-You can no longer throw ammo.

Well yes, removing separate ammo removed the need to throw it.

DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK YOU'VE POINTED OUT SOMETHING USEFUL, RETARD? NO, REALLY NOW, DO YOU?

Fucking retard.

-You can no longer throw the flag once you have it.

This may be a change from TFC, but it doesn't necessarily reduce complexity.

"NECESSARILY" DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IN THIS DISCUSSION, MORON. THIS IS NOT AN ABSTRACT-THEORETICAL DISCUSSION -- WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC GAME HERE. AND IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, THE REVIEWER IS SAYING THAT REMOVING FLAG THROWING DOES INDEED REDUCE THE COMPLEXITY. AND HE GIVES DETAILED REASONS. SO EITHER COUNTER THEM OR SHUT THE FUCK UP, MORON, AND KEEP YOUR "NOT NECESSARILY" BULLSHIT FOR YOUR RETARDED FRIENDS AT LAMEFAQS.

-Random Dice Rolls/Critical Hits were added that do three times more damage.

About random damage and criticals, those are both options server-owners can choose to have on or off, and in high-level play, they are always off.

GOOD, WHICH MEANS THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN IN THE GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE, BECAUSE NOW THEY RUIN PUBLIC GAMES, AS WELL AS THE SCRUBS WHO PLAY THEM. WE'VE ALREADY COVERED THIS SEVERAL TIMES -- ONCE MORE, THANKS FOR DUMPING IN MY FORUM, RETARD!

Yes, this means you can't argue against criticals.

I have probably explained this half a dozen times at least in this very thread. So yeah, banned.

That said, TF2 PC shouldn't be compared to TF2 360, for obvious reasons.

He never compared them. But of course if you can't read, you must have missed that.

Not to mention that you CAN, and SHOULD, compare them if you want to.

So, yeah, that's it. For anyone reading this thread, note that I have not answered those of his points which were game-specific, because I have not played the game. I just picked off those which are clear as day even to someone who has never touched the game. But given how retarded those points of his were, I wouldn't be surprised if everything else was also a pile or retarded horseshit nonsense.

[Tain]

The new update is out, and now all unlockable weapons can be unlocked randomly depending on time played.

This has lead to a huge number of servers running a map that makes players idle around without any contact with the enemy or their capture point.

Surely so much better than just giving everybody all the options from the start, Valve.

[Otaku^Fetishization]

Since Crazy Man's review, major changes to the game's balance and mechanics have been implemented, which attempt to move the game in the direction of both competitive and uncompetitive players. Interruptible auto-reload is the most devastating of these changes, though the spy and sniper have both received a general increase in viability and complexity after their respective updates.

Following TF2 Beta 2, an invitational project headed by Valve's Robin Walker, the leagues are anticipating changes (such as the recent Sandman and Pistol tweaks) that will morph the core product to better foster a growing competitive community and perhaps a dynamic metagame. The sad thing is, it would appear they have abandoned all gametypes without control points in the process.

If they're willing to make such major changes to their game without charging a nickel, they'll definitely need to choose whether they're catering to the slowly-growing competitive community or the masses of easily-amused pubfags and stick with that direction. Until then, TF2 can never reach its potential.

Regarding his review, I feel that despite Crazy Man's accurate depiction of (and reassuring disgust at) the series's re-imagining as an accessible casual FPS, it was clear he had too little experience with the competitive community to try and comment on it. Take his 3Demo/3Medic comment, for example. The reason those two classes are limited in competition (a fact which he didn't seem to be aware of at the time-of-writing) is not because they are an unbeatable combination (which they certainly aren't), but because their abilities discourage aggression by either team, and no one wants to play or watch a competitive FPS when everyone is just waiting on invulns every round.

He also failed to specify that random critical hits can be disabled through a server convar and that the competitive community has been utilizing a mod called TFTrue to reduce all damage spread to their medians, before Valve officially reduced all damage spread to the point of negligibility. Furthermore the TF2 heavy has never been the main counter to anything, except perhaps the useless 2007 Pyro. Counter-classes are so soft in TF2 that they are all negligible, especially considering that the only advantages a class can have over an enemy class are based entirely on his situation and the map's layout, even in a one-on-one situation.

I could go on and on, but what really breaks his credibility is that he based his entire opinion of competitive TF2 on the totally broken and largely abandoned CTF gametype. Most leagues stick exclusively to 5CP and attack/defend maps, the former of which would have fulfilled his desire for having "more than unbalanced Team Deathmatch," being "able to be a huge asset to the team without having to kill anyone," and being "able to practice movement techniques and do speedruns across maps," which are staples of 5CP.

Instead of actually playing competitive TF2, I assert that what Crazy Man did was play a guessing game as to how it turned out based on his public server experience (which is where they actually do play CTF) and he should have stuck with what he knew instead of overlapping into the competitive status of the title as he did.

[icycalm]

If they're willing to make such major changes to their game without charging a nickel, they'll definitely need to choose whether they're catering to the slowly-growing competitive community or the masses of easily-amused pubfags and stick with that direction. Until then, TF2 can never reach its potential.

We'll be sure to check back in a decade to see if it has "reached its potential" yet, lol. Retard.

He also failed to specify that random critical hits can be disabled through a server convar

And you failed to read this thread in which this fact has been pointed out several times and refuted for the fubar that it is. Retard.

I could go on and on

No you couldn't, because if you could you would have -- retard.

but what really breaks his credibility is that he based his entire opinion of competitive TF2 on the totally broken and largely abandoned CTF gametype

LOL, yeah. What a mystery, especially given that its predecessor's strong point, which endeared the game to people like the reviewer, was CTF play. Retard.

Most leagues stick exclusively to 5CP and attack/defend maps

No one cares. People here review GAMES -- not the elaborately modified or reimagined or restricted versions that a couple of fans might decide to play half a decade after the original game's release or their own private environment.

Instead of actually playing competitive TF2

EVERYONE plays "competitive TF2" whether they want to or not. There has not yet been a SINGLE human being who has played TF2 without playing "competitive TF2", retard.

Now get your retarded ass out of my forum.

[icycalm]

To spell this out clearly (because whatever is not laboriously spelled out goes completely over the cabbage-heads of the videogame world's terminally retarded population): the game that Crazy Man reviewed and the game that the fuckhead above and others like him are playing today ARE DIFFERENT FUCKING GAMES. To come in and call out Crazy Man's review as wrong or misguided AS A WHOLE because he did not stick around to explore every single fucking possibility of the game, several years down the line, and after multiple patches and upgrades, and played on a private environment with additional modifications -- IS RETARDED. Hence the banning (and also because the idiot did not bother reading the thread before posting in it).

What the idiot COULD have done, if he hadn't been an idiot, is provide HIS OWN REVIEW of this NEW GAME he is playing. He could have posted it here and I would have thanked him profusely for his efforts. And five years down the line, when TF2 would have morphed into something still more different, he could have come back here again and posted HIS NEW REVIEW of this OTHER NEW GAME. Et cetera, et cetera, until the end of time.

But all that would of course have required intelligence, which in the videogame community is apparently a non-existent quality outside the 10 or 20 people who regularly post in this forum. And so on and so forth.

[FluffyM]

Hey there.

I'm playing competitive TF2 in div3 of etf2l* (as pocket-soldier) for over a year now and so of course have formed an opinion on the game and everything that I feel is wrong with it (which I won't go into detail with, though).

In public play the game obviously is a joke. Stuns, random crits, slows, etc do not belong in FPS games, period. Others in here allready went on about it long enough so I'll keep it at that.

In comp, however, the game is completely different (not only because 5CP maps are the standard, not CTF/PL/AD). I'd say it's about 75% teamwork (coordination, communication, tactics), 20% individual skill and 5% "random" bollocks. Crits are off in tournament mode, weaponspread has been reduced even before valve finally patched that in and spam is reduced to a bearable amount with demo-limit 1. Yet, the game still feels quite random at times due to overheal, more damage-/bullet-spread, projectiles not unfolding to their full explosive radius due to shitty mapping, etc. That can be a big problem in div1 I imagine, not so much in div2-div6 where a lost round because of 1 fluke rocket doesn't mean anything (or at least, not as much).

Anyway, that's not what I registered here for. Just wanted to add that valve currently have a closed beta running to which top competitive players from europe and the US were invited to test gamechanges (heavy running faster with gloves out to make him viable in comp, etc) and give suggestions- that's a great step in the right direction. They're working on more 5CP maps for comp, and so on.

Lastly, I had to lol at the tier list I saw earlier in the thread. Are you serious? In an environment as much depending on positioning and teamwork as comp tf2 a tierlist has no place. Scouts are the only class that isnt affected too much by environment, then demo to a lesser extent, but none of the classes are better than one another. Soldiers hold scouts in check, scouts...just kill everything, and demos stand by and spam. There are no tiers, just skillceilings- and even those are hotly debated over by TF2 players of all skill-levels.


P.S.: Who plays competitive FPS on consoles anyway? :P

*6v6: 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, 1 demo, 1 medic

[icycalm]

and so of course have formed an opinion on the game and everything that I feel is wrong with it (which I won't go into detail with, though).

If you tell us that you think some things are wrong with the game, you are also OBLIGED to tell us what these things are. Otherwise we'll ban you for wasting our time with unsubstantiated allegations. So yeah -- BANNED.

In public play the game obviously is a joke. Stuns, random crits, slows, etc do not belong in FPS games, period. Others in here allready went on about it long enough so I'll keep it at that.

"Others" have NOT gone on "long enough" about it. THE ORIGINAL REVIEWER went on long enough about it, retard. And since we don't like retards here -- BANNED.

In comp, however, the game is completely different

What is this "comp" you speak of? If "comp" stands for "competition", then "public play" is also "comp", because it entails competition. So, no, the public play model of the game is not different from the comp public play model of the game, because they are the same. And since you are not smart enough to realize this -- BANNED.

Crits are off in tournament mode, weaponspread has been reduced even before valve finally patched that in

What is this "valve" you speak of? There is some sort of valve that goes around patching games? Are you mentally disturbed? In that case, BANNED.

Anyway, that's not what I registered here for. Just wanted to add that valve currently have a closed beta running to which top competitive players from europe and the US were invited to test gamechanges (heavy running faster with gloves out to make him viable in comp, etc) and give suggestions- that's a great step in the right direction.

Although I have no idea what these "valves" and "europes" and "gamechanges" you speak of are, if all these things are steps in the right direction, I am glad. Hopefully all these steps will lead them to arrive at the right destination at some future time, so that my grandchildren might perhaps be able to take advantage of all this hard, diligent work.

And since I am sure you are too stupid to catch the sarcasm in the above paragraph -- BANNED.

Lastly, I had to lol at the tier list I saw earlier in the thread.

lolling at tier lists WITHOUT providing your own tier lists is a banable offence here. So BANNED.

Are you serious? In an environment as much depending on positioning and teamwork as comp tf2 a tierlist has no place.

No idea what this "tf2" or "tierlist" are supposed to be -- so BANNED.

Also, too stupid to realize that tier lists ALWAYS have a place in competitive games -- so BANNED.

Scouts are the only class that isnt affected

Ignorant of the correct use of apostrophes -- BANNED.

There are no tiers, just skillceilings- and even those are hotly debated over by TF2 players of all skill-levels.

Too stupid to realize that EVERYTHING in a competitive game is "hotly debated" and that the way to ENTER this debate is to HOTLY DEBATE -- not to attempt to put an end to the debate by saying that it is HOTLY DEBATED somewhere else. So BANNED.

P.S.: Who plays competitive FPS on consoles anyway? :P

Everyone who clicks on the "multiplayer" option in a console FPS. And since you are too stupid to realize this -- BANNED.