Ultimate Edition

[icycalm]

Good background discussion to have in mind when thinking about the upcoming gifted hero mechanics. I wouldn't allow 30-point buys for roleplaying characters or regular adventuring heroes, but for gifted heroes this system is perfect in making these heroes feel special, which is their whole point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG ... _do_you_do

30 point buy... what do you do?

My soon to be GM is considering doing a 30 point buy. I warned him that this would be very dangerous.

So... if you have 30 point buy, how would you abuse that?

ITT: Rants

TL;DR: 30-point buy doesn't break games, it lets you make characters the way you want them without compromising with horrid dump stats.

This post is full of comments about how people make ridiculous characters with 30-point buy, and how they're going to stomp through everything just from the sheer, inherent lack of balance it might have.

You people are crazy. You play characters with two-to-three 7s in stats you don't like and fill up the rest to have your character just so, and you seem to have no problem with it. You don't seem to realize that, mechanically speaking, the difference between a 14 and a 18 is not very significant.

30 point buy isn't broken, it's freeing. It lets you make the character you want without having to compromise by making your character a socially and mentally deficient, impulsive-compulsive moron.

Your fighter on 15-point buy: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7.

Your fighter on 30-point buy: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 12.

Yeah, you can just tell your campaign is going to collapse upon itself because of how radically more powerful your fighter is.

So your character's a monk, the ultimate Multiple Ability Dependency class. What do you think's going to happen, you might have +1 or +2 to AC? People are always complaining about how weak the monk is anyway, so that shouldn't bother you.

What if you're a caster? Well, your casting stat's not going to go up above 20, and we both know you were going to make yourself physically crippled (yet somehow curiously resilient) to get that 20 anyway, so what's the problem?

In conclusion, the idea that slightly-higher point buy is overpowered is perpetrated by people who don't understand the game.

EDIT: Oh and hey, here's a small joy from running 30 point buy. Not sure what you want to do? Do whatever you want with the good at everything stat array. Never wonder about what could have been, ever again!

The "Good At Everything" Array: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14.

I love this. This sort of stuff can even be done with a 25-point buy and makes for a much more well-rounded character. Does your fighter have to be a genius? No, but it's a hell of a lot easier and more fun to play a character that isn't meant to be a brick with a weapon taped on.

Very true. Personally, I always have more fun playing a character who can think or talk his way out of a bad situation, even if he thrives in bad situations. Who needs a dump stat, anyway?

I completely agree with this with one minor caveat: The druid. He was balanced from his 3.5 stupidity by making him pick one route to go, either combat or casting.

You could no longer deal more damage than a fighter while still being a great 9th level caster, because to do so you'd need good str for damage, great wis for casting, great dex because druid AC solutions are rare, good con because you're front line melee, and hahaha good luck using wild empathy because CHA is your dump stat always and forever.

The druid is probably the most MAD class in the game, as bad or worse than the monk, but unlike the monk he's actually balanced around it. Super high point buy druids can be almost as good divine casters as a cleric, and just as good at fighting as a martial class, plus a companion. Give him a massive point buy and he'll take on almost every role and be as good or better than the others at it.

The "Good at Everything" array is exactly why 30 point buy sucks. PCs shouldn't all be jack-of-all-trades batmen. Those low stats are there so that other players can fill specific roles that you can't. Why even travel with a party if you're so tough, smart, wise, and charming that you're just naturally good at everything? Where's the fun in that?

DISCLAIMER: This is only my opinion. Some people prefer their characters to be deeply flawed. I, however, prefer a character that won't drag anyone else down with him if he makes a mistake because of a crippling dump stat. I do not condemn or condone either playstyles, and I loathe optimizing one area at the expense of all others.

Shouldn't ALL be jack-of-all-trades? What, if you give your particular group the choice to put 14 in everything, each and every single one of your players is going to do it?

As for why you'd want to travel in a party when you're naturally marginally better at everything in comparison to the normal man or woman, that's very simple: because out there, there be dragons and demons and gods and things unspeakable, and it's always better to travel with friends. Even if you really ARE better than each and every single one of your friends at everything (which you will not be), it's still better to travel with friends. Delegate, delegate, delegate.

Why would you want to, then, even if you're not an invincible superman? Because it's always good to have a backup, somebody reliable to fall back on if shit hits the fan. Maybe you need a two-man act, or somebody to flank with, or a third pickpocket, or a driver.

High and low stats aren't there to make you so bad or so good at anything that there's just no point for anyone else to try. That's what class abilities, skill points and feats are for.

"Good at everything" isn't the same as "master of everything." Having fourteen in every stat can be a hindrance because the character is a master of none. He'll never be as good at any specific job as a specialist, and if a specialist is present, he'll be the better choice to fill the role. This stat distribution doesn't break the game, but it can help round out a party by having a "utility" member.

... You know... feats... skill points... weapons/items/etc....

90% of the game doesn't care about you having a +2 to everything too much.

I'd say that increased point buy doesn't negate specialization - the wizard is still going to be the go-to for intelligence-based things and the barbarian the lead smasher, but it allows other characters the ability to be part of actions they otherwise couldn't be part of. They're significantly better all around then the average joe, but that was already the case. But that's just how I feel.

What makes you think anyone making a Fighter is going to bother with Charisma when they can just go 18/16/16/7/11/7? In which case it does make your character more powerful. It'll be boring as hell and useless for anything but swinging a sword, but they'll be better at that.

Or an even worse case you get a Wizard who goes 7/14/18/18/9/7, thereby removing the majority of the already minimal weaknesses they might have had.

"Or worse," really? How is that worse? Does anyone really have such weak game as a GM that +2 hp per level and +2 to Fort saves is ever going to have a significant impact on the balance of their game? Same goes for your the idiot fighter example. You can do this with 20 points buy too, it'll just be a tiny, tiny bit worse.

If your player is willing to cripple his character to have very brief and occasional moments of awesome, that should be his choice. But if he wants to pick up a bit of utility from the other side by foregoing dump stats, then more power to him. Or her.

A wizard going from 14 to 18 con is 36% more hp on average, that's a pretty big difference.

I'm not saying it overpowers characters, but it definitely makes them noticeably more powerful.

If you're willing to cripple yourself for a constitution score, there isn't much anyone can do to stop you. For example:

15-points buy: Str 7, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 7, Cha 7.

20-points buy: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 7. Pathfinder Society standard.

30-points buy doesn't really factor all that much into it, beyond smoothing the edges on an otherwise very, very rough character.

Of course characters with 30 point buy have more potential than characters who have 20, or 15. I'm not trying to argue otherwise, but rather that the difference itself really isn't all that important, and it shouldn't be that much more work, if at all, as a GM for having the benefit of making your players that much happier.

Besides, no matter what you work with, shooting for a second 18 is never wise.

That 20 point buy is a 22 point buy, need to drop down to 7 wis.

I think a better idea than 30 point buy would be to make common dump stats like Charisma and Strength a bit more useful for all characters.

Good eye. As for Charisma... well, it only has all the best skills. ;p

Don't forget leadership.

I personally don't want to play "perfect" characters. I like how my cleric only has 12 dex, which led to hilarious situations with acrobatics checks.

I don't want my fighter to be a genius. My wizard shouldn't be stronger than Schwarzenegger. My flexible and agile rogue shouldn't have 16+str.

It's rp-ing.

Then don't give them those stats...

Make your fighter strong, fast, and tough. Make your wizard smart and worldly, give the rogue a silver tongue.

Or just leave what would be a dump state at 10, and carry on with the build as if it were a lower point buy.

I prefer my characters flavorful. This includes bad stats.

Mad classes become better as the point buy goes higher. I'd look at monk or a paladin. Bow paladin would be absurdly strong with those kinds of stats. Perhaps a spread like 14/19/14/9/8/16. Alternatively you play a wizard, because it is still probably the strongest. Edit:stat breakdown

Some idiots think that using a low pointbuy like 10 or 15 will somehow "balance out" the wizards that the internet has told them to blindly fear, just like they think using "low magic" rule variants will help. It doesn't. The worst thing you can do to the weaker classes in the game is to drop the pointbuy to 10 and restrict their access to magical equipment. It doesn't hurt the wizards and oracles at all.

I'll take it one further, I ran a 35 point buy game, called it Legendary+.

Honestly? It was fine. The fighter dealt exactly the same damage as if he'd have a 20 point buy, the only difference is he actually had some int and wasn't as slobbering fumbling idiot with no int/cha. To me, it opens up a LOT of roleplaying options, everyone is a little bit more versatile, and no one ever has to worry about a negative charisma/int destroying their chances at roleplaying. It really doesn't favor SAD classes at all.

I could see it being abused by finally making some of of the more zany builds possible, like a battle bard or a sorcerer that has enough physical stats to wade into melee combat with touch attacks and stuff, but all in all, it won't break shit, it just opens up the possibility for more interesting builds. Hell, if a player is determined to break shit, they're going to do it whether they have a 10 point buy, or a 35 point buy, the 25+ point buys just let them have some more interesting options.

And, in the end, the wizard is still probably going to be the strongest in the party by level 10, so who cares? Now the dimensional dervish monk actually has a chance to not suck while the wizard does exactly the same thing that he would be doing if he had a low stat buy. High stat buys are fine, they don't benefit SAD classes like, at all, and it opens up a lot of roleplaying possibilities and fun builds.

It's not dangerous just means he's doing epic fantasy. It means your APL goes up by 1 or 2. Nbd.

I would do: Human fighter, 20/14/18/8/11/7

:P

Per the rulebook, "Epic Fantasy" is only a 25 point buy. 30 is epic+ and, speaking from experiences as a player and GM, that high of a buy can make low-level play something of a joke.

Note that I don't have any of the issues they discuss because I am not allowing any kind of point-buy in roleplaying campaigns, only in the adventure-strategy layer, and even then only for a handful of heroes. I am basically copying this design from Master of Magic. More soon in the Alpha 2.0 thread.