Theory

[icycalm]

This thread is mostly for Josh, zinger, Macaw and perhaps Recap (if he finds the subject interesting). Other people are free to post if they wish, but please make sure you know exactly what you are talking about, because I don't really need extra confusion.

So we have this genre, which the Japanese call Action Shooting, and which Westerners usually call Run and Gun, and I am not quite sure which of the two labels I should adopt. So far I've been using Run and Gun, separating it into two sub-genres: horizontal and overhead.

What I would like to know is: what do the Japanese call overhead Run and Guns? Can I call them "overhead action shooting games"?

And what about mecha games like Assault Suits Valken or Night Slave? Where exactly do they fit in?

The reason I get so stuck up on genres and sub-genres is the Videogame Art section. We need lists of the top 10/15/20/25/etc. games in each distinct sub-genre, and though I have so far managed to neatly categorize most other kinds of games, this kind here is giving me a little trouble.

[JoshF]

I don't mind the term "Run and Gun" but I wouldn't use it foremost. I'll use it once in a while but it's based on feel (like, if I don't want too many instances of "Action Shooting".) Action Shooting tells you exactly what it is. Run and Gun tells you two words that rhyme and sound catchy, like "meet and greet", "shake and bake", etc.

The term "Platformer" is kind of iffy to me too. It's so vague that I've seen any game where the main character jumps labeled as a Platformer. I think it's best to stick with the general genre terms like action, adventure, puzzle, strategy, role playing, and build from there. I'd prefer the clarity of "overhead action shooting game" over some muddy lingo like, I don't know "overtop bop the cop" or something.

[Macaw]

Japanese in general just refer to all of these as 'scroll action' or something similar. Stuff like Valken and Super Mario are both 'scroll action', although sometimes fancier names are given, for example 'Mecha Scroll Action' is often used for Valken.

For overhead stuff, 'scroll action' is still pretty much used in Japan, or something like 'ikari type scroll action', much like how they refer to every 2d brawler as 'final fight type'

I don't really mind what genre names are given. I just think of them all as 'action games'

[raphael]

Just to be sure, you're talking of Commando/Ikari Warriors/Outzone likes and Contra/Metal Slug likes ?

If so, I'd go for "overhead scroll action" and "side scroll action". Adding "shooting" if necessary.

The overhead or side representation is the most important aspect since it determines how things look and what you can do. Just as the first person shooter genre is determined by its 3 dimensional representation first.

"Run and gun" is restrictive and not precise enough. "Horizontal run and gun" sounds like words put together randomly and it's not obvious which games it would apply to (horizontal screen or horizontal scrolling, what about multi directional scrolling ?) . "Overhead run and gun" just sounds a little silly to me.

And what about mecha games like Assault Suits Valken or Night Slave? Where exactly do they fit in?

To me Assault Suits Valken would be a side scroll action game with a few pure shooting game sequences.

[zinger]

Action Shooting tells you exactly what it is.

Does it really? To me it sounds like it could fit any action game that involves shooting, whether it's an STG, FPS or whatever. If the aim is to have something as descriptive and distinct as possible, we'd have to point out what sets these games apart from other action game subgenres that involves shooting: usually it's gravity (for side scrollers) and non-forced scrolling. But I don't know of any elegant way of putting it. I'd say side scrolling (or over head) run & gun is good enough though.

[zinger]

What I would like to know is: what do the Japanese call overhead Run and Guns? Can I call them "overhead action shooting games"?

Here's the answer I got from an expert just now:

It is expressed as TopViewACT-STG /SideViewACT-STG.

[Recap]

Action Shooting tells you exactly what it is.

Does it really? To me it sounds like it could fit any action game that involves shooting, whether it's an STG, FPS or whatever.

Indeed. For a Japanese "shooting" is Gradius, but also is House of the Dead or Doom, much like they're all "shooters" for anyone born in the Americas, I guess. Senjou no Ookami (not unlike, say, Last Mission) is historically also "shooting", since the term doesn't involve "auto-scrolling" necessarily (if you think about it, that's a quite stupid (hi, Shmups Dot Com) condition -- you don't need "scroll" to get brand-new enemy formations/attacks coming at you; check Space Invaders).

I don't believe that "action shooting" (or "shooting action"), or "scroll action", or "whatever action" are actually used as genre/subgenre naming conventions. They're just descriptions. "Scroll action" is a quite useless term once they stopped making Bubble Bobble clones anymore; they usually put there a "yoko" or something before "scroll", which evidences they're just "describing" and not "classifying". Genre classification is quite useless in the end, if you ask me.

"Run and gun" is not what "Westerners" use, anyway. I'm a "westerner" and everybody here would laugh at me if I did, for instance. It's just another of those silly inventions by the Americans. 'Cause "Run" and "gun" is essentially what you do in Halo, isn't it?

[icycalm]

Here's the answer I got from an expert just now:

It is expressed as TopViewACT-STG /SideViewACT-STG.

Which is what we'll go with.

The thread is over, but I guess I might as well reply to Raphael's post because I'd otherwise be forced to delete it.

Just to be sure, you're talking of Commando/Ikari Warriors/Outzone likes and Contra/Metal Slug likes?

:(

If so, I'd go for "overhead scroll action" and "side scroll action". Adding "shooting" if necessary.

The choices you'd go for weren't even on the menu.

The overhead or side representation is the most important aspect since it determines how things look and what you can do. Just as the first person shooter genre is determined by its 3 dimensional representation first.

Yeah, off-topic. I wasn't asking for help on the overhead/horizontal distinction. I was asking about the other one.

"Run and gun" is restrictive and not precise enough. "Horizontal run and gun" sounds like words put together randomly and it's not obvious which games it would apply to (horizontal screen or horizontal scrolling, what about multi directional scrolling ?) "Overhead run and gun" just sounds a little silly to me.

Your whole posts sounds a little silly to me.

And what about mecha games like Assault Suits Valken or Night Slave? Where exactly do they fit in?

To me Assault Suits Valken would be a side scroll action game with a few pure shooting game sequences.

Great. So Valken's genre will from now on be "a side scroll action game with a few pure shooting game sequences".

Zero understanding of the point of this thread.

[icycalm]

Genre classification is quite useless in the end, if you ask me.

Not for me. I explained why. Without genres I cannot create a coherent and easy to navigate section with recommendations of the best games in each genre. But it goes even deeper than that. I'll have more to say on the subject in an article.

"Run and gun" is not what "Westerners" use, anyway. I'm a "westerner" and everybody here would laugh at me if I did, for instance.

I don't think so. Certainly I wouldn't laugh at you, nor Josh, for example. And NO ONE would laugh at you on NeoGAF or NTSCUK or the IGN boards. Which is because run and gun is a western naming convention.

'Cause "Run" and "gun" is essentially what you do in Halo, isn't it?

We've been through this in the openworld thread. In the end it doesn't really matter what you call a genre. You can call them "genre 1", "genre 2", "genre 3", etc. if you want. The point is that we need these labels to more effectively discuss games without using phrases such as "a side scroll action game with a few pure shooting game sequences" three times per paragraph. If the labels can be a bit descriptive, a bit elegant, then so much the better. If not, it's no big deal. But we need them.

[Recap]

Genre classification is quite useless in the end, if you ask me.

Not for me. I explained why. Without genres I cannot create a coherent and easy to navigate section with recommendations of the best games in each genre. But it goes even deeper than that. I'll have more to say on the subject in an article.

Looking forward to where you'll place Guardian Heroes, Tsuukai Gan-Gan Koushinkyoku and Odin Sphere...!

"Run and gun" is not what "Westerners" use, anyway. I'm a "westerner" and everybody here would laugh at me if I did, for instance.

I don't think so. Certainly I wouldn't laugh at you, nor Josh, for example. And NO ONE would laugh at you on NeoGAF or NTSCUK or the IGN boards. Which is because run and gun is a western naming convention.

Well, with "here" I meant a more physical location, you know. Anyway, Meristation people would laugh and it's a Western website too. So where's the "convention"?

We've been through this in the openworld thread. In the end it doesn't really matter what you call a genre. You can call them "genre 1", "genre 2", "genre 3", etc. if you want.

I can agree there. Not sure if I see the actual need for a classification, but it's understandable. Have you thought about just sticking to the official "labels" for every game?

[icycalm]

Looking forward to where you'll place Guardian Heroes, Tsuukai Gan-Gan Koushinkyoku and Odin Sphere...!

More or less how the SB people would have replied to me. :(

I mean isn't it obvious? There will always be an extremely tiny minority of games (say, one in a couple thousand) which will not fit any of the existing genres. If their seperation is very small you simply shove them in whatever genre comes closer. If it's great you simply create a new genre. If it's perfectly balanced between the two and the experience has never yet been replicated, you add them in a catch-all Misc. category.

Why am I the only person in the world that gets this? Isn't this exactly how classification works in EVERY kind of field? :(


(And PS. I wouldn't have trouble with Odin Sphere because there's no way in hell it would end up on that section of the site.)

Well, with "here" I meant a more physical location, you know. Anyway, Meristation people would laugh and it's a Western website too. So where's the "convention"?

I think I already told you were the convention is. Also:

convention |kənˈven ch ən|
noun
• behavior that is considered acceptable to most members of a society

Notice the word "most". And yeah, if you want me to provide statistical data to back up this claim it's just not going to happen.

I can agree there. Not sure if I see the actual need for a classification, but it's understandable. Have you thought about just sticking to the official "labels" for every game?

Yes, I thought about it, for about one nanosecond. In that time I figured out that having 354 labels, many of them applied to various games which have practically nothing in common, would not be a very good idea for my purposes.

[icycalm]

I mean isn't it obvious? There will always be an extremely tiny minority of games (say, one in a couple thousand) which will not fit any of the existing genres. If their seperation is very small you simply shove them in whatever genre comes closer. If it's great you simply create a new genre. If it's perfectly balanced between the two and the experience has never yet been replicated, you add them in a catch-all Misc. category.

And note also that ALL of the most innovative games at one point passed through that Misc. category (Computer Space, Adventure, Wolfenstein 3D, DDR, etc.). Once similar games are released, they are moved out of the Misc. category into a brand-new genre label. Indeed, the Misc. category is very important, because by looking in it you can get a quick idea of what game designs:

a. Should perhaps be developed or refined further

b. Were not sound enough to warrant being developed or refined further

[Recap]

Looking forward to where you'll place Guardian Heroes, Tsuukai Gan-Gan Koushinkyoku and Odin Sphere...!

More or less how the SB people would have replied to me. :(

Yeah, I've always thought you overstimate those people for some reason. I agree with what you say, but the problem is that it's not "an extremely tiny minority of games". At all. Only the "action RPG" (as they put it) stuff is several hundreds. And I see anything there quite "troublesome" for what you want to do.

I think I already told you were the convention is. Also:

convention |kənˈven ch ən|
noun
• behavior that is considered acceptable to most members of a society

Notice the word "most". And yeah, if you want me to provide statistical data to back up this claim it's just not going to happen.

God bless the internet society.

[icycalm]

Yeah, I've always thought you overstimate those people for some reason.

Good comeback, lol.

I agree with what you say, but the problem is that it's not "an extremely tiny minority of games". At all.

By my standards, it is. It all depends on what you consider a minority. One in thousand or so is to me a minority. Even one in 500 is, as far as I am concerned, and the ratio is most certainly not that low.

Only the "action RPG" (as they put it) stuff is several hundreds.

Ummmm... and what exactly is wrong with that? The more the better.

God bless the internet society.

I wasn't saying whether it's good or not -- I was just stating a fact. And note that in the end I didn't even pick their convention -- I picked the Japanese convention because, hell, it's THEIR genre.

[icycalm]

Lost Planet 2's genre is listed on MS Japan's release schedule as "アクションシューティング" (Action Shooting)...

http://www.xbox.com/ja-JP/games/calendar.aspx

Basically, if you try to go by anyone's genre classification, no matter who that someone is, you'll only end up committing huge gaffes. You just simply have to start from the beginning and define everything yourself, using established conventions only as far as they are reasonable and useful.