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The Kieron Gillen thread

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The Kieron Gillen thread

Unread postby icycalm » 25 Jan 2010 00:33

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/01 ... apers-103/

Andrew Doull on Game difficulty. I’m chewing over a lot of stuff in this area myself. I think, retrospectively, the re-approaching of difficulty in games is going to be the big theme if we look at this period in games – following the innovations in accessibility of the previous 5. As in, difficult games using the lessons learned to make more entryist games to make better difficult games – for example, the lessons of Lego Star Wars which are at work in VVVVVV.


This is the guy who once said that "Alex Kierkegaard can't write".
Last edited by icycalm on 26 Jan 2010 17:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Kieron Gillen thread

Unread postby darksun » 25 Jan 2010 21:15

Man, this was brutal. Every relevant Insomnia essay (and every primal instinct to kill) was burning through my skull when I read his final "summary":

Andrew Doull wrote:To summarise, games can be difficult because of:

1. Random number generators
2. Indeterminacy of outcomes due to unpredictable external forces
3. Other players
4. Complex risk vs. reward trade offs
5. Finite playing time
6. Self-limiting performance
7. Inequality
8. Asymmetry
9. Learning the rules
10. Incomplete information
11. Incorrect information
12. User interface
13. Disparity between beginning, mid and high level play
14. Complexity
15. Emergence
16. Play
17. Pleasure


I think he missed "the mysterious wrath of god". To add insult to self-injury, he adds:

Andrew Doull wrote:to ask how do we make a game harder, is to ask how we can vary these factors in an interesting way.


This is an excellent way to make life harder, if not damn near impossible.

Andrew Doull wrote:There's a whole lot here to take in, and I have skimmed over topic areas that warrant an article in themselves.


Fortunately, many of these topics have been accounted for, by a human being who can write, among many other things.

Andrew Doull wrote:This has been a diversion from the path we were taking,


Oh goodness...

Andrew Doull wrote:but an important one, and for part seven, I'll be getting back on track, and making a second attempt to talk about failure.


A "second attempt" to talk about failure implies that the first attempt was a failure. This dude cannot even succeed in writing about something he excels at doing.
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Unread postby Strifer » 25 Jan 2010 22:59

Here's my favourite part of Doull's article:

Andrew Doull wrote:Whereas play is the province of mod designers and role players. We can always make a game more difficult, by choosing to make it more difficult, limiting ourselves artificially to a different set of standards, or changing the rules of the game and exploring the results. I'll be the nurse, you be the doctor this time - scrub as strength instead of weakness. Even for a seasoned play to winner like David Sirlin, play provides the opportunity for some well-needed research and development time. If I play as Blanka, can I find some bug or exploit against Guile, my favourite character, that an opponent in an upcoming tournament may try to use against me? What about if I blank on the day? Who should I choose instead if I don't make my crouch low punches reliably?


One of the points in Doull's list is the word "play," which, here, means absolutely nothing, and I think even he does not know what it means. Halfway through he says that you can learn something about the game by playing it using a different character, but how does it relate to the topic at hand – I do not know.

Nietzsche wrote:173. Being profound and seeming profound

Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water.


Which also applies to Gillen. I would love to know what, exactly, are those "lessons" that Lego Star Wars has taught us.

So I did some research to check whether Gillen actually wrote anything about Lego Star Wars, and I came across this gem:

Kieron Gillen wrote:The play needed to be more like play.


Great. Just great.

Here's another quote from the same article, which might shed some light on what Gillen might have meant through his comparison:

Kieron Gillen wrote:"What can be conventionally thought of as failure can be rewarding," Smith says. That philosophy appeared most noticeably in the health mechanism, where a player wasn't punished for experimentation. Instead, they developed a positive reward system based around gathering tokens, which are lost when struck.


I have played VVVVVV a bit, so here's my guess: Gillen likes it that VVVVVV has checkpoints that are, at most, two or three screens apart; and when you die, you instantly respawn at the last checkpoint.

Way to be convenient, Gillen. Keep on chewing your bubblegum.
Last edited by Strifer on 26 Jan 2010 22:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Mathis » 26 Jan 2010 00:29

It gets worse -- or maybe he has gotten better. Check out this nearly five-year-old Darwinia review.

This is the first "sentence", I shit you not.

Kieron Gillen wrote:Monday neologism: Post-genre.


Here's one broken-up paragraph, because there's so much bullshit in that "review" it would take me a good chunk of time to take it all apart.

At this point, we've entered the realm of the post-genre. It's what the progressive, intelligent gamers are playing. Simultaneously, it's also a terribly populist movement. After all, what genre does Grand Theft Auto belong to?


Oh, I know! It's a top-down 2-D action game! That's easy!

None.


What... the fuck?

It's about a half a dozen, [...]


But you just said it belonged to no genre!

[...] blended seamlessly into a fluid, expressive form. Genres have burnt out, and we hit the post-modern point where everything is up for grabs again, the entire history of gaming turned into beautiful decadent cocktails.


Leave it to an NGJ purveyor to put the words "beautiful" and "decadent" next to each other in a sentence. I wish the world was post-Gillen.

I found the review through this article on Something Awful. It was one of the first ten results that came up when I typed "Kieron Gillen sucks" on Google.
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Jan 2010 17:11

Gillen and his kind should really be pitied, not despised.

I mean look at this again:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/01 ... apers-103/

Gillen wrote:Sundays are for wondering how we let the terrorists win in the board game last night, rambling out a quick post on Ultima and compiling a list of fine (mainly) videogame reading we gathered from across the week, while trying to stop myself linking to a couple of indie-folk-who-follow-on-me-on-twitter’s new videos. Yes. Yes.

■When Gamers with Jobs is normally good. When it’s full-on, it’s phenomenal. Fathers, sons, operations and games.

■While the games-journo twitter community was afire with gags about the games-causes-rickets scare, Joe Martin takes a well-deserved proper swing at it. And then joins twitter, to get the gags.

■Tom Bissel over at Crispygamer on our unhealthy interest in spoilers. As in, gamers. Not specifically RPS. Only John cares about spoilers, because he only cares about stories and weeping. Talking about weeping – a quick note of sympathy to Crispygamer’s editorial staff, who’ve been laid off this week. The site will be missed and I hope everyone finds a new home with little pain.

■Andrew Doull on Game difficulty. I’m chewing over a lot of stuff in this area myself. I think, retrospectively, the re-approaching of difficulty in games is going to be the big theme if we look at this period in games – following the innovations in accessibility of the previous 5. As in, difficult games using the lessons learned to make more entryist games to make better difficult games – for example, the lessons of Lego Star Wars which are at work in VVVVVV.

■Robert Yang on non-interactive games again. KNIFE FIGHT! WE WILL ONLY BE SATISFIED BY THE FLASH OF BLADES IN AN INDIE-GAME ALLEYWAY.

■Meanwhile, Frictional – the Penumbra chaps – say how gameplay and narrative kill meaning in games. THE KNIFE FIGHT IS BACK ON.

■Tom Francis on Open World Games, in a relatively restrained mood What works and why. One day someone’s going to give Tom a job making a fucker, and it’ll be a better world for that.

■Giles Hitchcock of Rockstar Games London writes a belated response to some of the Modern Warfare “No Russian” level. I actually typoed Modern Warfare as Modern Worfare, which sounds like a brilliant Star Trek spin-off. Go Infinity Ward! You can have that one for free.

■Actually, while we’re on that topic, here’s the Ethopian review on the lack of Americans in Modern Warfare 2. It’s kind of obvious stuff, but in case people haven’t thought about it…

■Some of you were wondering the story behind Darwinia + and the multiplayer. Here’s Introversion talking to C&VG in a two part interview, and they cover all that kind of stuff. Oh – and as another plug, I’m chairing a public interview thing at BAFTA with Introversion. Tickets available! Probably!

■Especially after the recent VVVVVV and Solium Infernum debates, this is timely. Picked up via Slashdot, Ramblings of a gamer wonders how much a game is actually worth, creating a metric for game’s worth including elements of enjoyment and time and… oh, man. This sounds like a lot of work.

■Oh – Chris Webb pointed me at this. It’s an Ars-technica article about Indie Game funding. I’d personally deal arms to pay for mine.

■Balrog Bonus. Lyrical flow. Also, combo-flow

■Post Haiti, I found this worth reading.

■Guy cuts out his own appendix. Da Fug!?!?!?!

■Moscow Stray dogs gaining intelligence and using tube. Da Fug!?!?!?!?!.

■The future of journalism is astronomy.

■I finally got around to reading Charlie Stross’ Accelerando this week, which is scary and brilliant and so brilliant he scares me. Here’s him wrestling with the Moneterization Paradox. It’s what pretty much every creative I know is doing, frankly.

■The AV Club on Northern Soul. Unexpected.

■Well, they could have un-subbed by now. Here’s Los Campesino’s new video Here’s Art Brut’s Eddie Argos’ new solo thingy. And the former was directed my old comrade-in-arms Alex De Campi. Hurrah for social networking!

Failed.



Look at all the trash he fills his brains with every Sunday. I mean, how can you NOT turn into a smarmy idiot with such abominable reading habits? A single one of these links is enough to make anyone's head spin for the rest of the day -- I don't even want to imagine what effect all of them together would have. Not to speak of a regular weekly intake of such a huge amount of nonsense.

I mean, do I even need to click on the link to figure out that this is going to be nonsense?

Gillen wrote:■Robert Yang on non-interactive games again.


Jesus Fucking Christ you morons! Who let you out of the asylum? Or the fucking zoo?
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Unread postby Skid Headcrash » 11 May 2010 10:42

Currently, Kieron is answering questions about himself on Formspring, yet another social website, including this one: What's your honest opinion of icycalm?

Kieron Gillen wrote:What is the point of the first book of icy?
//rllmukforumgagoff

Either a brilliant troll or genuinely mentally troubled. Perhaps both. If it's the latter, it doesn't mean that his better points aren't actually worth considering, of course. It just means you have to hack through the misogyny/nihilism/sociopathy/whatever to get to it.

(The funniest thing is always when he comes back with a NO! YOU ARE THE TRUE HATERS OF WOMEN! when someone calls him on talking about wanting to coil barbed wire around someone's uterus or whatever)

The idea of his I really have serious time for is the radical changing of what an individual videogame is. Which I don't agree with, but it's such a brilliant refocusing of an argument I have to admire the gall.

His weakness is an inability to actually understand anything outside his experience (which is limited) and worldview (which is even more so). The only time I ever communicated with him I spent god knows how many posts trying to explain the idea of what would interest Leigh as a journalist (as in, a reporter of the news) being different to what would interest Leigh as a gamer (Her own critical tastes). He simply couldn't/wouldn't grasp the concept.

I'd love to get him and Francesco Poli in a room together though.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 May 2010 13:35

Absolutely incapable of forming any arguments whatever. In any case, just for the hell of it I'll answer his random incoherent comments.

Kieron Gillen wrote:Either a brilliant troll or genuinely mentally troubled.


Yeah, and we all know what a troll is: Someone who says things you don't like, fail to understand, and are incapable of countering.

As for being mentally troubled: I'd take that over being an idiot (see Gillen) any day of the week.

Kieron Gillen wrote:Perhaps both. If it's the latter, it doesn't mean that his better points aren't actually worth considering, of course. It just means you have to hack through the misogyny/nihilism/sociopathy/whatever to get to it.


I've already explained that only uneducated fuckfaces could call philosophers like me misogynists. The same goes with nihilism: it is moralistic fuckwits like Gillen who are the real nihilists, not genuine philosophers. As for the charge of "sociopathy", I'll accept that. It is to my honor that I find the masses revolting, and it betrays Gillen's affinity with them that he doesn't.

Kieron Gillen wrote:(The funniest thing is always when he comes back with a NO! YOU ARE THE TRUE HATERS OF WOMEN! when someone calls him on talking about wanting to coil barbed wire around someone's uterus or whatever)


The last part is totally manufactured by him. The first part is true, and we've been through this before. It is glaringly obvious that those who hate women are the ones who want to turn them into men -- not those who love them and enjoy them as they are and have always been.

Kieron Gillen wrote:The idea of his I really have serious time for is the radical changing of what an individual videogame is. Which I don't agree with


So he doesn't agree with "my idea" that a videogame is a machine? What is it then? But I guess we'll have to wait until hell freezes over for him to explain that to us.

Kieron Gillen wrote:but it's such a brilliant refocusing of an argument I have to admire the gall.


Yes, it takes a lot of gall in a slave society for someone to point out the obvious. That much we can at least agree on.

Kieron Gillen wrote:His weakness is an inability to actually understand anything outside his experience (which is limited)


lol. My experience is limited, but the retarded little British shut-in fagot scribbler's isn't.

Kieron Gillen wrote:and worldview (which is even more so).


Yes, the worldview of the person who has at his command the entire past of philosophy, history and science is "limited", while that of him who knows less than many teenagers I know and who has spent his entire life scribbling bullshit about videogeams isn't.

Kieron Gillen wrote:The only time I ever communicated with him I spent god knows how many posts trying to explain the idea of what would interest Leigh as a journalist (as in, a reporter of the news) being different to what would interest Leigh as a gamer (Her own critical tastes). He simply couldn't/wouldn't grasp the concept.


And you couldn't/wouldn't grasp the MUCH HIGHER CONCEPT that to separate what you like as A PERSON to what you like as a "WORKER" -- I.E. AS A SLAVE, is a sure sign of the complete and utter WORTHLESSNESS OF YOUR OPINION.

So yeah. Gillen, lol.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 May 2010 18:10

And by the way, he has falsified even the last point. Leigh Alexander was not talking about what "interested" her, as HE states, but about what she likes:

Leigh Alexander wrote:I don't like flOw (as a player, while I like it as a journalist, if that makes sense)


She can even sort of see that her bullshit doesn't even make sense -- but she can't see why. Gillen is even beyond this. Or perhaps he isn't, which is why he was obliged to falsify her statement so as not to come off as obviously retarded even to the feebleminded.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 May 2010 18:35

Re: Gillen's various falsifications of my views:

Nietzsche wrote:The opinions of one's opponents. -- To assess the natural quality of even the cleverest heads -- to see whether they are naturally subtle or feeble -- one should take note of how they interpret and reproduce the opinions of their opponents: for how it does this betrays the natural measure of every intellect. -- The perfect sage without knowing it elevates his opponent into the ideal and purifies his contradictory opinion of every blemish and adventitiousness: only when his opponent has by this means become a god with shining weapons does the sage fight against him.


That's what the perfect sage does. The perfect idiot, on the other hand, not only fails to understand what his opponent is saying, but twists and obfuscates and falsifies THE FUCK out of it -- and "only when his opponent has by this means become a pathetic worm with no weapons whatever does the idiot fight against him".
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Unread postby xeo » 31 May 2010 12:14

You've already mentioned how awful the Sunday Papers are on RPS. Yesterday saw a particularly egregious example involving a swivel-eyed feminist, Gillen prostrating himself before the All-Wise Vagina and a comments thread that stinks of lonely men who vote Liberal Democrat desperately defending 'wimmen' in the hopes of attracting one.

Kieron Gillen wrote:James Andrewartha points me at Hoyden About Town seeing misogyny in the PR of Zombiecow’s Channel-4 funded Educational game Privates. A delicate one this – as always with any feminist point, it’s better to shut the hell up and listen – though my main note that I think it’s borderline cultural imperialism when someone from outside the culture, unaware of the subject of the satire (The Daily Mail), unilaterally declares the satire is out of bounds. Not all countries are the same, and diktats to pretend they are irk me


Why we should shut up and listen to feminists, when they have produced precisely nothing of interest or value, remains unanswered.

The Sunday Papers can be found here:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/05 ... apers-121/

The feminist blog post can be found here:
http://hoydenabouttown.com/20100522.754 ... -misogyny/
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Unread postby JoshF » 31 May 2010 14:04

Is there anyone who hates women more than a feminist?
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Unread postby icycalm » 31 May 2010 22:53

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:The struggle for equal rights is even a symptom of sickness: every physician knows that. -- The more a woman is a woman the more she defends herself tooth and nail against rights in general: for the state of nature, the eternal war between the sexes puts her in a superior position by far. -- Have there been ears for my definition of love? It is the only one worthy of a philosopher. Love -- in its methods war, in its foundation the mortal hatred of the sexes. Has my answer been heard to the question how one cures -- "redeems" -- a woman? One makes a child for her. The woman has need of children, the man is always only the means: thus spoke Zarathustra. -- "Emancipation of woman" -- is the instinctive hatred of the woman who has turned out ill, that is to say is incapable of bearing, for her who has turned out well -- the struggle against "man" is only means, subterfuge, tactic. When they elevate themselves as "woman in herself", as "higher woman", as "idealist" woman, they want to lower the general level of rank of woman; no surer means for achieving that than grammar school education, trousers and the political rights of voting cattle. At bottom the emancipated are the anarchists in the world of the "eternal-womanly", the under-privileged whose deepest instinct is revenge... An entire species of the most malevolent "idealism" -- which, by the way, also occurs in men, for example in the case of Henrik Ibsen, that typical old maid -- has the objective of poisoning the good conscience, the naturalness in sexual love...


You really only have to take a look at a few pictures of the pioneers of feminism to see how true all of this is: they were butch abortions, all of them. And even today, I have yet to meet a pretty girl, or even a semi-pretty one, who takes feminism seriously. At the very most they mighty CHATTER ON a bit about it, because that is what is expected of them (and like the good slaves that they are, they simply do whatever is expected of them, their goal always being to please) -- but as soon as someone comes along to whom they are attracted, all of that drivel goes out the window and we might as well be back in the stone age. They want to be dominated, first and above all in bed, and then also, perhaps to a lesser extent, in everything else. Woe to him who tries to play the "sensitive man" like they show us in the movies! Showbiz is dominated by mostly homosexuals, and that's why the movies are full of this sort of bullshit. But they aren't fooling anyone, and most certainly not the women. You can't change instincts acquired over countless millennia in a couple of generations -- this shit is simply science fiction. You CAN change instincts, but it takes an extremely long time, almost as long as it took to form them perhaps, and moreover the CONDITIONS that gave rise to them must above all be changed. Right now, for example, purely in terms of logic, women should really be more sexually attracted to bold, fat executives than to violent, muscular men. The conditions in which the attraction to the violent men made sense have long since vanished -- but the INSTINCT, you see, cannot be changed as quickly as our reasoning faculty. And by the time the sexual instincts of women have had a chance to adapt to the changing circumstances, sexuality will probably have been long abolished. The cause of the feminists -- i.e. the elimination of the differences between men and women, i.e. the elimination of sexuality -- is already on the way to being accomplished by the scientists (cloning, genetic engineering, synthetic biology, etc.) And the scientific way works thousands of times faster than the naive propaganda of the feminists, because it works directly on the SMALLER WORLD, at the micro-molecular level. The abolition of sexuality by the scientists will take the form of a fait accompli -- no one will ever have a choice in the matter. It will take the form, in other words, of fascism, like all real change (as opposed to the purely fictional kind in which idealists of all stripes routinely engage in).
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Unread postby icycalm » 01 Jun 2010 20:18

Image

To get an idea of how old the sexual instinct is that the subhumans are trying to eradicate in a few decades with their naive propaganda -- with nothing more, basically, than mere chatter.
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Unread postby icycalm » 02 Jun 2010 15:48

"Continental feminism", lol:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/femap ... ntinental/

Let's just ignore "intercontinental feminism", if it even exists, as we ignore anything else in philosophy that is "intercontinental".

The entire article is an inexhaustible source of lols, as long as you know what you should be lolling at, but for now I'll just draw attention to this:

4.3 The Complexity of the Theories

Finally, and perhaps most common, continental feminist philosophy is criticized for being overly esoteric. This criticism is related conceptually to that concerning its apolitical nature, as described above. However, on its own, this criticism speaks to the fact that comprehending and working within continental feminist theory demands extremely specialized knowledge, and is therefore limited to a very few individuals. Moreover, those individuals are almost inevitably situated within economically and racially privileged groups, since the academic and intellectual background assumed by this body of work is rarely attained without access to extremely high levels of education.

In being dense, intellectually challenging, and, frankly, couched in writing that is highly saturated with jargon and technical language, continental feminist theory presents some very real barriers to those who do not have access to high levels of post-graduate education. To be complex in this way is to be exclusive in a way that is distinctly problematic for feminist thought and activism.


So basically, only the few women who belong to "economically and racially privileged groups" have a chance of benefitting from all these theories (-- assuming, of course, that there are any benefits to be derived from them).

So all these theories are supposed to challenge and erode inequalities, and yet by being comprehensible only to an elite -- the horror! -- they only end up EXACERBATING inequality (if indeed they have any effect at all).

But who knows. Perhaps at some future time when all human beings will be equal and have equal cognitive powers, experiences and education, perhaps then feminist theories will be comprehensible and work their magic on everyone -- perhaps even on men. At which point perhaps the feminists will finally turn their attention to the female sexes of other species than homo sapiens sapiens. After all, it's not really fair for the other animals to remain unequal forever. Being unequal for several billion years is just not nice you know. Thanks to the efforts of the feminists and the humanists and the democrats and the philanthropists and other nihilists, UTOPIA IS FINALLY APPROACHING!
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Unread postby icycalm » 02 Jun 2010 15:57

Like Schopenhaur says, what a pity we didn't start earlier, we'd be there by now. Let me find that quote a moment.
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Unread postby icycalm » 03 Jun 2010 21:31

Via email:

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Hi Alex,

I'm writing because I would like some clarification on your views concerning minority groups seeking further civil rights protections. My confusion mainly stems from the complete difference in thinking of what the aims of these groups are, and how these aims can be achieved. Before I go on, I would like to say that I'm genuinely curious about your thinking, and am in no way seeking to antagonize or troll, as other e-mailers have (I should also disclose that I'm writing through e-mail, and not the forums, because I was banned for a formatting error).

My first question: (And, of course, correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth) How have you come to the understanding that feminism's ultimate aim is to eradicate the differences between the sexes, and why have you failed to focus on widespread, and less extreme, goals of these groups?

Feminism, as I understand it, is not about, and has never been about, a pursuit of equality to the extent that the sexes would be understood as equals in every, or, hell, most circumstances. Rather, it is about the understanding that women are individuals who should not be dismissed, mistreated, abused, or shamed simply because they are women (which would be judging an individual primarily on a group they belong to, and not their abilities--which it seems you loathe). (To expand--feminists are certainly against victim blaming in cases of rape, in which female rape victims are seen as partially guilty or deserving of the rape--in the most extreme cases, because they somehow did not stop the crime itself from happening, and in other cases, because they perhaps dressed in a manner which may be deemed overly sexual--somehow "inviting" of the crime). Feminists, in general, want women who are exceptional to be seen as such--as well as those who aren't exceptional to be seen as such. What they want, simply, is the opportunity for women to be seen for who they are beyond simply being a woman. They are also, of course, against more damaging acts against women--forced female circumcision, among other things.

I'm sure that you know all of this, and, judging by your posts as a whole, even support these aims--which is why I'm so confused! I haven't seen you address the legitimate, not-balls-out-crazy aims of these groups in the forums, rather focusing on a very general aim of wanting to be equal, or even superior to, the current privileged group (white males, basically), in all areas, and dismissing them for this very general aim. To be blunt, you're smarter than this, dude. I mean, you're really fucking smart, and I don't understand why you're not bringing the same nuance to this topic that you do to others. I also don't know how you've come to the understanding that this is feminism's aim, which I need to emphasize.

Second question: What exactly do you mean when you say minority groups (or individuals) should simply seize their equality (especially when considering societal constraints)?

You've dismissed civil rights groups because, by placing themselves within such a group, individuals have somehow furthered, and made certain, their inequality. But what is a viable alternative? I understand that in nations that have shown considerable acceptance of minority groups, individuals may have an opportunity to excel even when their differences, "otherness", is known (which can serve as a vehicle for acceptance and a giant "fuck you" to bigots), but what of areas where they are severely discriminated against, or, hell, killed, if their minority status is known? How can an individual succeed as an individual when they are placed within a despised minority group by the majority, and told, whether explicitly or implicitly, that they are a subhuman because of this? Why is joining with others who are called lesser, and fighting for acceptance, the wrong approach?

I'll stop here for now. Thank you for reading, and I hope you can reply soon.


The above is a response partly to my posts in this thread, and partly to some of those in the lol @ girls thread, so be sure to read that too if you want to be able to understand what's going on here.

I'll reply at some point in the next few days. Can't do it right now because I will need to quote from my copy of The Will to Power, which I don't have with me at the moment. I'll probably also split the feminism discussion off from Gillen's lol thread.
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Unread postby icycalm » 07 Jun 2010 01:58

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I'm writing because I would like some clarification on your views concerning minority groups seeking further civil rights protections.


That is a quite disingenuous way to put it -- though I grant you it is the usual way. The correct way, however, would be this:

"I'm writing because I would like some clarification on your views concerning loosely defined groups of people seeking to deceive others into granting them further powers."

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:How have you come to the understanding that feminism's ultimate aim is to eradicate the differences between the sexes, and why have you failed to focus on widespread, and less extreme, goals of these groups?


Because the so-called "less extreme" goals STEM FROM THESE DIFFERENCES. If women were not different from men there would be no reason to treat them differently -- in fact they would not even be women, they would be men -- in fact we would not even HAVE the words "men" and "women" -- we would all be, sexually at least, the same.

But we are not the same. And because we are not the same we also find it impossible to treat each other as if we were the same. Hence if you want people to stop treating different types of people differently (which is what all these so-called "civil rights" groups want) you have to eradicate these differences. There is simply no other way. Even the most extremely repressive dictatorship (which is what the subhumans would like to institute, if possible) would find it impossible to force, say, a healthy man to treat a woman as if she were a man.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Feminism, as I understand it, is not about, and has never been about, a pursuit of equality to the extent that the sexes would be understood as equals in every, or, hell, most circumstances.


Consequently you don't understand feminism. You are just some stupid uneducated kid vomiting your forum- and blog-acquired retarded nonsense on the internet.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Rather, it is about the understanding that women are individuals who should not be dismissed, mistreated, abused, or shamed simply because they are women (which would be judging an individual primarily on a group they belong to, and not their abilities--which it seems you loathe).


But being a woman, moron, i.e. having the qualities that women in general have, IS PART OF THEIR "ABILITIES". Just as I have a right to look at cockroaches and judge them wholesale as disgusting and despicable BECAUSE THEY ARE COCKROACHES (notwhistanding the fact that there are, of course, some cockroaches which are perhaps smarter and less disgusting than others), and to look at eagles and find them amazing and magnificent EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE EAGLES (i.e. because they all share a set of basic characteristics which I deem amazing and magnificent -- notwithstanding the fact that there are, of course, eagles that are less aggressive and less fearless than others) -- just so I have the right to look at women and judge them wholesale as weak and stupid (notwithstandig the fact that there are, of course, some women who are less weak and less stupid than others).

In short, no amount of ludicrous lies are going to prevent healthy, intelligent individuals from using conceptual categories to form value judgements and communicate them beween themselves, and no amount of ridiculous absurdities are going to convince us that the concept of "equality" has any meaning in the real world (i.e. outside of pure logic and mathematics).

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Feminists, in general, want blah blah blah


I do not give a flying fuck what feminists, or gays, or niggers, or gooks, or any other categoy of subhumans want. I only care about what I and my friends want -- everyone else can go hang themselves as far as I am concerned.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I'm sure that you know all of this, and, judging by your posts as a whole, even support these aims


lol

I also support the claims to rights of cockroaches. Have you been to a cockroach colony lately? They are all demonstrating about "equal rights". It's catching on. Bacteria will be next.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I haven't seen you address the legitimate, not-balls-out-crazy aims of these groups in the forums


There is no such thing as "legitimate" aims. Every "aim "is a play for power, and every play for power is illegitimate -- at least to those from whom one tries to seize power (to the attacker himself of course everything he does is perfectly legitimate).

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:To be blunt, you're smarter than this, dude. I mean, you're really fucking smart


You have no idea. And note that I do not take praise from inferiors as a compliment -- you are in no position to compliment me -- I take it as insolence, as presumption.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:and I don't understand why you're not bringing the same nuance to this topic that you do to others.


You cannot expect my random posts in the forum to display the thorougness that I put into my articles. Each of my articles represents my last word on the subject in question -- they therefore HAVE to be thorough and "balanced", as a subhuman would put it (though their balance and mine are completely different things, for their balance here is again a disguised form of "equality" ("everyone has a view, all views are equal"), whereas my balance is a complete perspectival appraisal FOLLOWED BY A CHOICE OF DIRECTION, i.e. a privileging of one viewpoint to the expense of the others, specifically of the one that leads upward -- something which is therefore an incitement to inequality, to an increase of inequality -- this is what all critique comes down to in the end, this is its purpose).

Now as regards the subject of videogames, the issue of sexuality (and hence of feminism) is extremely minor -- there is no such thing as sexuality in a virtual world, just as there are no such things as violence, or ethics, or any other of these venerable categories, which is why I have not yet written a thorough essay on the subject. My Cocksucking article is enough: it makes fun of hobags hijacking the hobby to pursue careerist agendas, and it briefly explains why women are in general indifferent to videogames and therefore inferior when it comes to critically evaluating them. That's all that needs to be said on the subject of womend in conjuction with videogames -- and even that is already too much.

The next -- and last -- time I will deal with women (and indeed with all types of subhumans) will be in my Manufactured Realities, and there the discussion will be as thorough and nuanced as anything else I have so far formally published.

Note that my definition of subhuman has nothing to do with gender, race, social position or any other such conceptual category: a subhuman for me is merely someone who, for whatever reason, is incapable of understanding philosophy -- if I came across a dog tomorrow who understood philosophy I would have no qualms of calling it (him) human and placing him above women, gooks, niggers, fagots, cockroaches, bacteria and other democrats.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Second question: What exactly do you mean when you say minority groups (or individuals) should simply seize their equality (especially when considering societal constraints)?


Oh, that's an easy one. To "seize" something is the opposite of to "beg" for it.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:You've dismissed civil rights groups because, by placing themselves within such a group, individuals have somehow furthered, and made certain, their inequality. But what is a viable alternative?


To wake the fuck up and educate yourself. All the rest will follow. (-- Note that I said YOURSELF, not others. Fuck others. Not only is it impossible to educate everyone -- it is also highly undesirable.)

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I understand that in nations that have shown considerable acceptance of minority groups, individuals may have an opportunity to excel even when their differences, "otherness", is known (which can serve as a vehicle for acceptance and a giant "fuck you" to bigots), but what of areas where they are severely discriminated against, or, hell, killed, if their minority status is known?


What about them? Those are the still strong (in respect of values), still healthy nations -- nothing needs to be done about them -- at least not in this respect. Our societies, on the other hand, are in decline, and have been so for centuries. Nothing can be done about that either (barring the invention of mind control technologies). The only thing left to do, again, is to work on yourself, to strengthen and educate yourself -- the rest will come of its own accord when the conditions are ripe for it.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:How can an individual succeed as an individual when they are placed within a despised minority group by the majority, and told, whether explicitly or implicitly, that they are a subhuman because of this?


You are asking this as if it's something impossible -- which is clear evidence that you yourself are merely another weak subhuman with low self-esteem. Do you have any idea how many names people have called me on the internet? What difference does it make? I am above all of them and know it -- what does it matter what curses they might scream at me while I am stomping on them? What COULD it matter? To allow oneself to be determined by one's environment is decadent -- to do so is proof of decadence -- every worthy individual climbs to his height by overcoming his environment, it is for this very reason that he NEEDS outside hostility, without which nothing would ever be achieved. And the greater the achievement, the greater the outside hostility that is necessary to make it possible. These depised subhumans that you pity -- they are in an ideal position for achieving great things -- why do they never do so? Perhaps because they can't? Perhaps because they ended up in that position exactly because they lacked the strength to resist being forced into it? And what would happen if someone simply handed them what they themsevles were never capable of seizing for themselves? Does a chicken that is let out of the coop suddenly become something higher than a chicken just because it has been let "free"? Is it not in fact merely confused and lost, and unable to even deal with this newfound "freedom", so that it ends up either being devoured by wolves or returning to the safety of the coop, where it belongs? where it was born and bred to be a chicken?

A parable.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Why is joining with others who are called lesser, and fighting for acceptance, the wrong approach?


Fighting for "acceptance" is decadent. It is like begging someone to like you -- it is disgusting. As long as you like yourself there will always be others who will like you of their own accord -- without any need to deceive them or force them into liking you.

As for joining up with with others and conspiring together for power -- there's nothing wrong with that. The problems begin when, in the course of the conspiracy, the conspirators fall victim to their own lies. If in the course of the stuggle these lies prove to be useful, they never again manage to free themselves of them -- and become stupid.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Jun 2010 23:44

One thing I forgot to point out (emphasis is mine):

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:You've dismissed civil rights groups because, by placing themselves within such a group, individuals have somehow furthered, and made certain, their inequality. But what is a viable alternative? I understand that in nations that have shown considerable acceptance of minority groups, individuals may have an opportunity to excel even when their differences, "otherness", is known (which can serve as a vehicle for acceptance and a giant "fuck you" to bigots)


Whoever says a "giant fuck you to bigots" is a bigot, and in fact a total bigot, a kind of uberbigot, because he basically hates EVERYONE, not just simply this or that particular group of people -- including HIMSELF. Because what the little subhuman means by "bigot" here is simply someone who is not enough of a hypocrite to deny using conceptual categories to make value judgements, and since it is impossible to make value judgements without using conceptual categories (the "bigot", for example, is such a category), and since moreover it is impossible to live WITHOUT making value judgements, the anti-"bigot" is also including himself in the definition of "bigot". So not only he hates others, indeed everyone, he also hates himself, in addition to being a hypocrite AND an idiot (for not being capable of understanding a word I just said).
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Jun 2010 23:55

All of this notwithstanding the fact that the "bigot" does not necessarily HATE the category towards which he pronounces an unfavorable judgement, just as people who think that women are stupid or dogs can't do math do not necessarily HATE them. The whole issue of hatred is brought in by the anti-"bigots" -- that is where hate begins. Because they do not like the value judgement that others have made about them, and because they can't face these judgements and refute them head on (because, after all, the judgements are correct -- for if they weren't it would be extremely esay to refute them without resorting to namecalling people bigots -- or just simply ignoring them), they need some sort of trick to salvage their battered self-esteem, at least in the eyes of those who can't see through such tricks, and thus they invent the "bigot" category, to which, however, they themselves belong, as explained above.

All of these machinations, by the way, occur unconsciously, which is another reason to despise the people who make use of them. If they were done consciously one could at least admire the cunning and the deviousness of those who devised such a trick, not to mention the impudence of using it, and the acting ability needed to pull it off successfully. But all that stuff does not apply to the case of subhumans any more than it applies to chameleons who automatically change color according to circumstances. There is really nothing to admire there apart from the complexity and coherence of the universe in which such behaviors are made possible, and indeed in many cases become downright necessary. For the subhuman does not have a choice to lie or not to lie: the lie for him has become necessary, as a condition of his existence -- without it his entire world would collapse.
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Unread postby icycalm » 14 Jun 2010 14:51

Response via email:

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:
icycalm wrote:Whoever says a "giant fuck you to bigots" is a bigot, and in fact a total bigot, a kind of uberbigot, because he basically hates EVERYONE, not just simply this or that particular group of people -- including HIMSELF. Because what the little subhuman means by "bigot" here is simply someone who is not enough of a hypocrite to deny using conceptual categories to make value judgements, and since it is impossible to make value judgements without using conceptual categories (the "bigot", for example, is such a category), and since moreover it is impossible to live WITHOUT making value judgements, the anti-"bigot" is also including himself in the definition of "bigot". So not only he hates others, indeed everyone, he also hates himself, in addition to being a hypocrite AND an idiot (for not being capable of understanding a word I just said).


When I use "bigot" I do not refer simply to people who make judgments using conceptual categories (for the very reason that you give--that everyone makes such judgments using categories). I've never had a problem with that fact, so I don't know why you're attacking me for it (I apologize if my phrasing was off, or if I suggested that I had a problem with it). I'm referring to people who make these judgments based on nonsensical bullshit (religion, ignorance, whatever), who try to make others' lives a living hell based on this bullshit (whether by denying them legal protections, shunning them, killing them, whatever), and who actively avoid even trying to get to know members of persecuted groups personally, or understand them. Basically, anyone who says "The gays/women/whatever minority group are evil" and backs this up with "lolololTehBibles!11!" As for the "giant fuck you" part, I mean that perhaps seeing a member of a minority group in a position that runs counter to what an individual believes a member of that group should be able to achieve, or, hell, having an extended conversation with a member of a minority group, will force that individual to question their idiotic (because they are based on idiocy) assumptions about an entire fucking group of people, and make them uncomfortable with their beliefs.

As for what you thought I was talking about--judgments and comments that are based on observations and experience, and not on pure bullshit--what you thought was an attack on your statements, I'm not going to argue because I'm still in the beginning stages of my learning. Though I feel a natural resistance to comments like "women are stupider than men", I can't argue either way, because I have no fucking idea. The most intelligent people among my peers that I have encountered have been female, but, of course, that means nothing when considering the entire global population. I certainly wasn't calling you a bigot, because you don't fit into the category of people who judge people based on bullshit (or, at least, I don't think you are--once I've come to my own conclusions, that could very well change).

And I did understand what you just said. And, as I said, I was never disputing the use of conceptual categories to make value judgments.

icycalm wrote:All of this notwithstanding the fact that the "bigot" does not necessarily HATE the category towards which he pronounces an unfavorable judgement, just as people who think that women are stupid or dogs can't do math do not necessarily HATE them. The whole issue of hatred is brought in by the anti-"bigots" -- that is where hate begins. Because they do not like the value judgement that others have made about them, and because they can't face these judgements and refute them head on (because, after all, the judgements are correct -- for if they weren't it would be extremely esay to refute them without resorting to namecalling people bigots -- or just simply ignoring them), they need some sort of trick to salvage their battered self-esteem, at least in the eyes of those who can't see through such tricks, and thus they invent the "bigot" category, to which, however, they themselves belong, as explained above.


Further misunderstanding, but I won't repeat myself. I wrongly assumed that you understood that I was talking about religious or other idiotically-derived judgments, given that the vast majority of the population identifies as religious, and that many modern social issues are basically religious disputes. To ignore religious bigotry is to ignore perhaps the biggest fucking factor as to WHY minority groups ARE STILL social minority groups within their respective societies.
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Unread postby icycalm » 14 Jun 2010 15:23

And my reply:

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:When I use "bigot" I do not refer simply to people who make judgments using conceptual categories


That's exactly what you are doing. That you are too stupid to realize it, even after I have explained it to you, is another matter.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I'm referring to people who make these judgments based on nonsensical bullshit (religion, ignorance, whatever),


lol. Witness the anti-"bigot" being so bigoted as to trash everyone else's most revered beliefs as "nonsensical bullshit". Every word you say merely serves to validate my point.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:who try to make others' lives a living hell based on this bullshit


Which is exactly what the person does who tries to make others feel ashamed of their natural inclinations (e.g. at a revulsion at homosexuality, an instinct without which mankind would have disappeared countless millennia ago).

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:(whether by denying them legal protections, shunning them, killing them, whatever)


Now the bigot wants to FORCE other people to relinquish legal powers to his friends, or to FORCE them to associate with his friends, or to FORCE them to not to attempt to kill whoever they judge that they should kill for whatever reason. What could be more bigoted, more fascistic than this?

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:and who actively avoid even trying to get to know members of persecuted groups personally, or understand them


Yes, God forbid I be allowed to choose who I want to get to know or not, God forbid I be allowed to choose who I want to try and understand or not.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Basically, anyone who says "The gays/women/whatever minority group are evil" and backs this up with "lolololTehBibles!11!"


lol. This is the same person who was previously puzzled by why I chose to focus on the "most extreme" demands of the feminists. Now he knows why.

Moreover, I do not even view these people's demands as extreme. This is what "to make a value judgment" means, moron: to use THE ENTIRE SCALE of value judgements: from good to evil, from beautiful to ugly, from desirable to disgusting. If you are FORCED to call everything good, beautiful and desirable you are not making any value judgements for christsake! you are just parroting things you don't believe in -- things you don't even feel! Reasons are even superfluous at this point, just as they are with trying to justify why you prefer the color blue. It is a matter of taste. I find fagots repulsive because a primeval INSTINCT speaks through me, finds expression through me -- and I'll be damned if I'll supress it (which suppression, by the way, would lead me to develop neuroses -- see Freud) for the benefit of botched abortions of little crypto-fascists like yourself.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:As for the "giant fuck you" part, I mean that perhaps seeing a member of a minority group in a position that runs counter to what an individual believes a member of that group should be able to achieve, or, hell, having an extended conversation with a member of a minority group, will force that individual to question their idiotic (because they are based on idiocy) assumptions about an entire fucking group of people, and make them uncomfortable with their beliefs.


So on the one hand you call everyone else's beliefs "nonsensical bullshit", but OH NOES SOMEONE MADE ME "UNCOMFORTABLE WITH MY BELIEFS".

But that's the thing. Making you "uncomfortable" is the least of what we have in stock for you. What we will do to you when we get our hands on you is make your life A LIVING HELL.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:As for what you thought I was talking about--judgments and comments that are based on observations and experience, and not on pure bullshit--


There ARE no judgments based on pure bullshit. Religions themselves are all based on observation and experience -- religions are a form of science. It's just that, in the days when they were created, people did not have enough data yet so they drew inferences based on scant observations. Someone danced and on the same day it happened to rain -- therefore, they concluded, dancing caused rain. It is the same with Newton's mechanistic theories. Quantum mechanics is more correct than mechanics, just as modern meteorological theories are more correct than those of the American Indians -- but all of them are based on "observations and experience". Christianity is no less "scientific" than Newton's laws of motion. "Pure bullshit", as you say, does not exist. You are simply being a bigoted hypocritical wretch by denying your opponents the right to their beliefs while trying to force on them your naive prejudices (about "equality", etc.)

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I'm not going to argue because I'm still in the beginning stages of my learning.


lol. You are not even in the beginning stages of HUMANITY, let alone of learning. As for not arguing AFTER ALL YOUR PREJUDICES HAVE BEEN DEMOLISHED -- I lol at that too.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:Though I feel a natural resistance to comments like "women are stupider than men"


This "natural resistance" is called AN INSTINCT. It is the same thing that the "bigots" feel, for example, at the sight of homosexuals. If you REALLY want to understand them this is where you should start. (But of course you don't really want to understand anyone, even if you could, which you can't because you are subhuman -- what you just want to do is to force your prejudices on them.)

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I can't argue either way, because I have no fucking idea.


Wow. A moment of clarity amidst all the rampaging retardation.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:The most intelligent people among my peers that I have encountered have been female


How could the peers of a wretched abortion of a subhuman bigot ever be intelligent? No surprises there, then.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I certainly wasn't calling you a bigot, because you don't fit into the category of people who judge people based on bullshit


As if it makes any difference to me what subhumans think. I care more about the feelings of the ants I inadvartently step on while taking a walk than I do about yours. I am merely carrying on this entire exchange for the benefit of my human readers.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:(or, at least, I don't think you are--once I've come to my own conclusions, that could very well change).


Oh noes! The subhuman uberbigot might come to the conclusion that I am a bigot! However will I live with this!

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:And I did understand what you just said.


lulz

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:And, as I said, I was never disputing the use of conceptual categories to make value judgments.


Which was exactly what you were doing and still are.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:I wrongly assumed that you understood that I was talking about religious or other idiotically-derived judgments,


You were talking, and are still talking, about whatever beliefs did not coincide with yours. Not to mention that YOUR judgments are at least a million times more "idiotically-derived" than the judgements of the religions of say, the ancient Greeks, or the Vikings, or the Japanese, or the pagan Arabs, or the American-Indians, etc. etc. Your judgments derive from the "equality before God" of the Christians -- you accuse the Christians of bigotry whereas every single idiocy you vomit has been derived through Christian ethics -- you are far more bigoted than they. A bigot of bigots, a bigot raised to the second power. Like I said: an uberbigot.

Kenneth Escamilla wrote:To ignore religious bigotry is to ignore perhaps the biggest fucking factor as to WHY minority groups ARE STILL social minority groups within their respective societies.


THEY ARE MINORITY GROUPS BECAUSE THEIR MEMBERS ARE FEWER, IDIOT! WHY DON'T YOU DO THE UNIVERSE A FAVOR AND HANG YOURSELF ALREADY!

------------


That's the last this retarded child-bigot will ever hear from me. He is banned from the forum and has now been spam-filtered from my inbox. I might return to this thread to post some passages from Nietzsche that talk about the points I made above, but I will not have anything more to do with him.
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