default header

Theory

1CCing: The intended way

Moderator: JC Denton

Unread postby JoshF » 20 Nov 2008 15:11

I've never seen this sign on an arcade cabinet before. In actual fact, some games say please (!) continue. To me, that means they want you to continue. Where does this "default setting" come from and how does it apply to games that ask you to continue?

It's pretty easy to reconcile. Continue features were added so arcade operators could make more money off of retards, simple as that. It a retard wants to use a game as a slot machine, that's okay, The operator isn't going to be complaining. I'd suggest a crane game where you can possibly get a nice Spongebob plush out of it. But for me, I'd rather see the game as a game and then play it. Plus, you get more play time that way.

How is it making a game worse by playing it? You haven't triggered an invincibility cheat or altered the game's rules in any way. You've just forfeited your score. A game experience should not be worse off by enjoying what is most challenging about it, which would be at and beyond the point that ended your run.

What is most challenging is probably that part that killed you. You should probably try solving that before anything further. I think you're forfeiting more than numbers too, but it's along that line. You're forfeiting that you don't have the sufficient skill to solve the game. Why would you be playing after that? To see the ending? But you skipped some pages. Get your ass kicked even more by something more challenging?

Ignoring this is to ignore an exclusive aspect in the enjoyment of an arcade game that you don't find anywhere else. You can't transpose console mentality with arcade mentality. Unless you're Hillary Goldstein. In that case, hey that Time Crisis 4 is short and easy isn't it?
User avatar
JoshF
 
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:56

Unread postby raphael » 20 Nov 2008 15:38

JoshF wrote:Continue features were added so arcade operators could make more money off of retards, simple as that. It a retard wants to use a game as a slot machine, that's okay, The operator isn't going to be complaining.

You are even encouraged to do so with insidious offers like:
1 coin = 1 credit / 2 coins = 3 credits

And I believe this, even more than the 'continue' feature, started the doom of the arcade.
User avatar
raphael
 
Joined: 04 Mar 2008 19:31
Location: Paris

Unread postby Recap » 20 Nov 2008 21:14

I once saw a game which asked me not to use drugs. ...!


raphael wrote:
JoshF wrote:Continue features were added so arcade operators could make more money off of retards, simple as that. It a retard wants to use a game as a slot machine, that's okay, The operator isn't going to be complaining.

You are even encouraged to do so with insidious offers like:
1 coin = 1 credit / 2 coins = 3 credits


Can't see how giving you an extra credit for free encourages to continue instead of using it properly.
Recap
Insomnia Staff
 
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 22:18

Re: 1CCing: The intended way

Unread postby Gnarf » 20 Nov 2008 23:21

Hello.

rob dot wrote:How is it making a game worse by playing it? You haven't triggered an invincibility cheat or altered the game's rules in any way. You've just forfeited your score. A game experience should not be worse off by enjoying what is most challenging about it, which would be at and beyond the point that ended your run.


Which part is more challenging isn't really relevant once you've removed the challenge from the game. Anything in the game that is challenging is challenging because you have three (or whatever, at least a set number of) lives to get through the game with. If you remove that element, it stops being challenging. That there's so totally a ton of bullets to dodge later in the game doesn't really matter unless getting hit by them matters. And so on.

Also, the discussion about what the developers really intended and what they just did in order to please the arcade operators seems mostly irrelevant. Metal Slug is a shit game if you have infinite lives. It's a good game if you have three. So, whatever the developers intended, if you want to play a good game then don't credit-feed it. If you don't get along with the idea of paying for continues not really being part of the game, that still holds.
Gnarf
 
Joined: 27 Aug 2008 18:31

Unread postby rob dot » 21 Nov 2008 01:34

joshf wrote:you don't have the sufficient skill to solve the game.

No denying it. The same goes for a player losing and restarting on level 1 over and over again.

Ignoring this is to ignore an exclusive aspect in the enjoyment of an arcade game that you don't find anywhere else.


gnarf wrote:Which part is more challenging isn't really relevant once you've removed the challenge from the game. Anything in the game that is challenging is challenging because you have three (or whatever, at least a set number of) lives to get through the game with. If you remove that element, it stops being challenging.

No, the challenge is not ignored or removed. If that was the case I'd never touch a game after finishing it/seeing the end and I think this is the biggest difference here - I don't see games I enjoy as being finished since there are always more points to get. If I'm playing a game for a long period of time, it is because of score.

A serious player will practice with one credit always in mind. You don't need to punish yourself with tedium to know what the game is throwing at you and what it will take to play properly. You can practice and acknowledge that labeling a run as practice means it isn't a proper run. You don't see anyone saying that they 3-credit cleared a game. Using an additional credit automatically means practice to anyone who uses 1CC as a goal marker (any serious player). If a person knows they will have 5 total lives to work with and they lose 6 practicing one area, they know how hard it is and that they will have to improve. If they know there is life-based bank, they know it will be even harder than that.

Point is, practicing most definitely respects a game's challenge. This all depends on who is doing the credit feeding and the reason they are doing it.

I first saw recap mention this something like three years ago. It was the first time I had heard of it and haven't heard of it again until seeing this thread. What is a rule that no one follows? What happens if someone breaks this rule? So far it only looks like there are claims that can't be verified by the person claiming them (you're making the game less enjoyable for yourself, removing the thrill of progress, etc.). I can confirm that there is still thrill of progress after practicing games a variety of ways.


recap wrote:I once saw a game which asked me not to use drugs. ...!

Game developers are so much more polite than the FBI or local organization of your choice, since they say please.
rob dot
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 11:06

Unread postby JoshF » 21 Nov 2008 02:37

Personally I don't see anything wrong with using a credit for practice after you've already cleared a game.
User avatar
JoshF
 
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:56

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 03:43

Thus far, the following points seem clear to me:

-Originally, continuing in arcade games by spending more money was not possible. This "feature" was added later on in order to make some extra money off of weak players, who just had to see what "happened next".

-Though in the short- and medium-term this "feature" did end up making extra money for the operators, in the long run it was a bad idea because it confused most players (especially non-Japanese ones), misleading them in thinking that the goal was to see the ending screen instead of getting good.

-Thus the continue "feature" seems to have been one of the main factors for the decline of arcade gaming. Had it never been widely adopted, the purpose of arcade gaming would have been instantly obvious to most everyone, and so more people would end up playing these games correctly -- and thus PLAYING THEM, period, instead of, you know, not playing them, as happens now.

-It is also clear that design-wise, arcade games have never benefitted from the continue "feature" (indeed, the opposite seems to have been true, as explained by Recap). Designers themselves have no plausible reason to love the idea of players continuing in their games (only the operators do), and in general it seems that the player is spoiling a great deal of their work (suspense, etc.) by doing so.

-To sum up: nothing good seems to have come about by the introduction of this "feature". Not a single damn thing.

-Now zinger, rob and others may claim that continuing helps them get more enjoyment out of mediocre or bad games -- and I can understand this argument. That's like saying that using a Game Genie or Action Replay code or a FAQ or cheat can make a mediocre or bad game less of a waste of time than it is. Fair enough. But then again I never use Game Genies or Action Replay codes or FAQs or cheats of any kind because I always do my damnedest to only play the best games out there. If you are only playing great games, what you want is to spend AS MUCH time with them as possible -- so not only do I avoid doing anything that might shorten the experience but I also try actively to lengthen it, by, for example, not even reading the fucking manual if, say, I am playing some very complex strategy game where reading the manual is paramount.

-From all the above, it would seem to me a very good, if impractical, idea to REMOVE the continue "feature" from all upcoming and future arcade games.

-What would such a move do to people like zinger and rob? How would it affect their gaming habits? Let's go one step further and consider how things would have turned out if continuing had never been introduced in the first place. Would zinger and rob be missing it now? Would they be saying "Hey, you know what, I wish there was a way I could press a button and just keep playing even after the 'Game Over' screen?"

-No, they wouldn't be saying it, because that's what Action Replays and Game Genies and emulators do. So they would already have this "feature"; they wouldn't need to wish for it (except perhaps with the newer games).

-To sum up: continuing is a form of cheating, no different from Game Genies, Action Replays and cheat codes, only it is built-in to the game (like many other kinds of cheat codes), and easily available (unlike them). This unique form of cheating exists only because the operators want it to and is a bad idea. There's a very good reason all other kinds of cheat codes are hidden, and this is in order to give even the more stupid players a chance to realize that the experience of playing games is degraded by cheating of any kind, except perhaps in games which were mediocre or bad to start with. But keep in mind that cheating is not the only way to improve the experience of playing mediocre or bad games: there are many others, including drugs, alcohol, money bets, etc.

-Last thing I have to say. If rob really does credit-feed every arcade game on his first go in order to see if it has lots of "filler", then I have to say that seems to me a pretty absurd practice. If it works for him, fine -- but it still seems absurd to me. I guess you really prefer early '80s arcade games, which had no real "stages" to speak of? Because that's how you seem to playing the games -- as if the stages did not exist (I obviously mean looks-wise, not design-wise). In that case, fair enough. But most people, even hardcore arcade fans, prefer the late-80's early-90's period exactly because of the varied stages, backgrounds, etc, which is the part of the game that your credit-feeding routine ruins. But like I said, this is one case where I am willing to say "to each his own". And would you also speedplay/fast-forward modern 3D games to the end as well, if this was possible, to gauge how much "filler" they had? Perhaps you would, but that would also seem to me an absurd practice. Why not just play them normally and simply stop when you hit the filler? I guess in that case you wouldn't know exactly how much filler there was -- perhaps not too much, in which case it'd be a good idea to persevere... So yes, I can see the usefulness of this practice, but you are still utterly destroying any kind of impact/suspense the game would have had on you -- and for what? To save a few hours on a few bad or mediocre games? I don't know. It just seems absurd to me.

JoshF wrote:Personally I don't see anything wrong with using a credit for practice after you've already cleared a game.


From all the above I would say that continuing at ANY point in an arcade game is just as right or just as wrong as using Game Genies, Action Replays, FAQs or cheat codes in any other kind of game. Me and Recap disdain all these aids for reasons explained. Most people use them now and then and feel that they enhance their enjoyment of at least some games.

I think I need to write an article on cheat codes, game guides and the like...
Last edited by icycalm on 21 Nov 2008 04:00, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby JoshF » 21 Nov 2008 03:54

I don't think this is the same rob. The one I know wouldn't compliment Treasure.

Me and Recap disdain all these aids for reasons explained.

But you guys don't play for score right?
Last edited by JoshF on 21 Nov 2008 03:59, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JoshF
 
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:56

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 03:54

JoshF wrote:I don't think this is the same rob. The one I know wouldn't compliment Treasure.


He is posting from Alaska.

JoshF wrote:
icycalm wrote:Me and Recap disdain all these aids for reasons explained.

But you guys don't play for score right?


We have both posted scores in the high score board. So obviously we do play for score. We are just not willing to sacrifice the suspense of a game in order to increase our score faster than usual.
Last edited by icycalm on 21 Nov 2008 04:04, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 04:11

And to clarify: I am not saying that continuing destroys ALL the suspense of an arcade game. Obviously the suspense derived from a difficult performance remains (although it's a somewhat less difficult performance, so obviously a slightly less suspenseful one). But the suspense that comes from facing THE UNKOWN is destroyed.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby JoshF » 21 Nov 2008 04:23

What unknown is there if you've already solved the game? I agree that credit-feeding should not be used prior to beating the game in a credit, as it does spoil the suspense. Reading this thread has also made me realize that I've also spoiled a couple games by trying to be competitive before really understanding them (i.e. watching replays) which not only takes away from the suspense of progression but also your overall ability to savor things like graphic design, music, enemy patterns, etc., as it all comes at once instead of having a chance to be really absorbed. After that though, if someone wants to play around with the rules in a way that allows them to put together one ultimate performance I still don't see the harm.
User avatar
JoshF
 
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:56

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 04:48

JoshF wrote:What unknown is there if you've already solved* the game?


None, but this is not what we are talking about. I was responding to rob and zinger, who use credit-feeding much more extensively than your proposed use.

JoshF wrote:After that though, if someone wants to play around with the rules in a way that allows them to put together one ultimate performance I still don't see the harm.


As for this, it's a point I don't care to even think about, since I've usually had about enough of a game by the time I 1CC it (this probably applies for Recap as well; remember, it takes us a LOT longer to 1CC a game the way we play ;)

Also!

I just thought of some really good questions which should help everyone get straight to the heart of the matter. This goes to zinger, rob, and everyone else who needs continues in order to better enjoy arcade games:

What about the old games, which did not allow you to continue? Can you not enjoy them? Would you enjoy them MORE with continues? Do you think that all the best scoring players in those games would rather have had continues available to them, so that they could have scored higher in less time?

If your answers are "What about them?", "No", "Yes" and "Yes", then you can still be happy knowing that all kinds of hacks exist for many old arcade games which allow you to do a zillion crazy things with them, and for those that don't you could always learn programming and hack your own. Is that a "bad" thing to do? Maybe not, but I believe that any game in which a player resorts to cheating of any kind in order to fully enjoy it is not a very good game...



*You mean to say "beaten". 'Solved' only goes for non-action games.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby rob dot » 21 Nov 2008 08:40

icycalm wrote:-Originally, continuing in arcade games by spending more money was not possible. This "feature" was added later on in order to make some extra money off of weak players, who just had to see what "happened next".

-Thus the continue "feature" seems to have been one of the main factors for the decline of arcade gaming. Had it never been widely adopted, the purpose of arcade gaming would have been instantly obvious to most everyone, and so more people would end up playing these games correctly -- and thus PLAYING THEM, period, instead of, you know, not playing them, as happens now.

User friendly features like this are only what the player makes of them, just as bombing can be used strategically or in moments of panic. Continues and bombs can both go unused. But without continues people might reject difficult arcade games even faster and I bet they'd still overlook any scoring element more complicated than shoot stuff. I think a lot of people haven't even been exposed to worthwhile modern arcade games, or they are told by their few sources of info that the occasional game they could be exposed to is not worthwhile (Shiki 3). That's a bigger problem than continues.

So as for the good they've done, continues leave the door open for casual players and they might then cross over to the dedicated. I must've dropped a few dozen quarters into the machine when I first played Strikers 1945 Plus. I failed miserably but was still lured in by the challenge (challenge made clear every time I had to continue), and I don't see why this should be any different for other people. It takes a special type of person to believe they've beaten a game by credit feeding and I don't think a lack of user friendly features will help.

Far more than a lack of continues, I would miss a lack of stage select in home ports. I know things that aren't in the original arcade release make people frown, but maybe this should be something to include in an official arcade release (instead of continues? make every stage the player reached open for selection). It'd cost the player for a fixed, possibly smaller amount of time, but they could practice or score attack the stage they need work on. And sometimes it is just fun to play a stage separately.

I don't care that much about continues and I don't think I use them extensively. One or two extra is usually enough if I'm in the mood for it, to see a boss battle through or a stage in advance. A little preparation. There are all sorts of attacks in games that require pre-knowledge. This is why things like gigantic instant kill lasers in Psikyo games don't bother me.

-Last thing I have to say. If rob really does credit-feed every arcade game on his first go in order to see if it has lots of "filler", then I have to say that seems to me a pretty absurd practice. If it works for him, fine -- but it still seems absurd to me. I guess you really prefer early '80s arcade games, which had no real "stages" to speak of? Because that's how you seem to playing the games -- as if the stages did not exist (I obviously mean looks-wise, not design-wise).

Not the first play, it's just an eventual part of getting a feel for the game if I'm not particularly into it. When I buy a new shooter I might play three single credit games to get a feel for the basics. After that I might want to see what they do with their ideas (or the one idea). Because that is all most recent games have. And the one developer of good-looking shooters around, not a big fan of their formula.

I prefer modern game design, but, yeah, I do like the simple look of early 80s arcade games. The art has to be really exceptional for me to care at all. Usually I don't even think about it, which is the only way I was able to play a game like Giga Wing Generations.

The only modern 3d action game I've replayed even once is Resident Evil 4. They're more like movies to me. They've done their job if I can get through them once, and I expect a lot more filler than I would tolerate from a 2d shooter. If I spent months working through the first half of Metal Slug 3, I would be incredibly disappointed with what followed. I'd feel like my dedication was misdirected. The first half gave no indication of how repetitive and seemingly endless some of the final stages are.

JoshF wrote:Personally I don't see anything wrong with using a credit for practice after you've already cleared a game.

This is exactly how I feel about savestate practice.

JoshF wrote:(i.e. watching replays)

This is what would ruin games for me. I like developing strategy, discovering tricks on my own. That's the enjoyment I get (and playing well). If someone is watching replays and enjoying the game anyways, they are getting something else. Oh well, I guess. (Not entirely truthful. I want to slap them.)

icycalm wrote:What about the old games, which did not allow you to continue? Can you not enjoy them? Would you enjoy them MORE with continues? Do you think that all the best scoring players in those games would rather have had continues available to them, so that they could have scored higher in less time?

These games are so simple and pattern based, so continuing isn't necessary. I was playing a bunch of early arcade shooters a while back and the lack of continues didn't cross my mind. I imagine players aiming for records would want any advantage they can get. Not useful for my purposes, since I don't care about having an advantage over another player.
rob dot
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 11:06

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 17:46

rob dot wrote:User friendly features like this are only what the player makes of them, just as bombing can be used strategically or in moments of panic.


That's not how games work. Many people think it is, but they are wrong. You don't just load up games with "user-friendly features" (lol) and hope the player uses them appropriately so as to draw the maximum enjoyment out of it. A game is expected to LIMIT the player's options. Where exactly the limits are placed is one of the key factors affecting the game experience. After the game is released you can hack the fuck out of it if you want, and perhaps you'll end up enjoying it way more in this "hacked-the-fuck-out" state than before. But that's your problem, not mine nor the designers'. In that case YOU become the designer, in the sense that you add your own rules or modify existing ones, so, you know, whatever works for you. Nevertheless I have to explain to my readers the drawbacks and negative consequences of this kind of mentality. Because at the end of the day the point is to play games, not design them, nor help design them. I am not interested in that.

rob dot wrote:Continues and bombs can both go unused. But without continues people might reject difficult arcade games even faster and I bet they'd still overlook any scoring element more complicated than shoot stuff. I think a lot of people haven't even been exposed to worthwhile modern arcade games, or they are told by their few sources of info that the occasional game they could be exposed to is not worthwhile (Shiki 3). That's a bigger problem than continues.

So as for the good they've done, continues leave the door open for casual players and they might then cross over to the dedicated. I must've dropped a few dozen quarters into the machine when I first played Strikers 1945 Plus. I failed miserably but was still lured in by the challenge (challenge made clear every time I had to continue), and I don't see why this should be any different for other people. It takes a special type of person to believe they've beaten a game by credit feeding and I don't think a lack of user friendly features will help.


All the above is baloney. The continue "feature" has not convinced a SINGLE person that I've heard of to become an arcade fan, whereas the 1CC rule is the only thing that keeps people interested in and playing these games. I had dozens of people email me, and received hundreds of positive responses to my arcade culture article, in this forum and in countless others. Many of those people had no idea that you are not supposed to continue in arcade games. After reading my article, they were finally able to see the greatness of these games, and start really playing them and enjoying them. Now why was my article necessary? -- because it is necessary. It is necessary because the built-in continue "feature" is a useless, bad idea. A short-sighted trick to get some extra money from idiots, which only ended up killing the entire arcade experience. If it wasn't all these things, people wouldn't need 6,000-word articles to learn to ignore it and enjoy the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed. No one needed 6,000-word essays to see the fun in power-ups, extends, varied stages, co-op or versus play, etc, and there's a very good reason for that.

rob dot wrote:Far more than a lack of continues, I would miss a lack of stage select in home ports.


Whatever. All that sort of shit will eventually be available through emulation anyway.

rob dot wrote:I don't care that much about continues and I don't think I use them extensively. One or two extra is usually enough if I'm in the mood for it, to see a boss battle through or a stage in advance. A little preparation. There are all sorts of attacks in games that require pre-knowledge. This is why things like gigantic instant kill lasers in Psikyo games don't bother me.


This is why Recap is right. Without continues stuff like that would bother you more. And perhaps it would bother other people too, and then maybe Psikyo would have thought twice about using such, let's just say, "cheap" techniques in later games.

rob dot wrote:These games are so simple and pattern based, so continuing isn't necessary. I was playing a bunch of early arcade shooters a while back and the lack of continues didn't cross my mind. I imagine players aiming for records would want any advantage they can get.


And now they can, with the help of hacks and emulation. As long as this shit is kept out of the official release (or remains very, very well-hidden) everyone's happy and everyone gains.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby ganheddo » 21 Nov 2008 18:01

JoshF wrote:What is most challenging is probably that part that killed you. You should probably try solving that before anything further.


One objection someone might see is: wouldn't it make sense to load a savestate close to were you died instead of starting from scratch?
If you mastered the early (easy) levels, then what sense would it make to replay them?

Well it would force designers to create games that offer greater amounts of possibilities to use what you've learned.
They'd have to design the early levels with a player's later skill increase in mind and provide meaningful ways for him to use his aquired skills to get better at those early parts.

Like finishing a level faster, with a higher score, more elegantly..

Metal Slug 3 is full of hidden extra items that usually need repeated play to find, yet not necessarily much skill in doing so (just look for secrets everywhere), therefore not a good motivator for repeated play.

A better option is to add the remaining time to your highscore (don't know if this is done?), which would encourage you to make more interesting choices (is it worth to get a certain item if that takes a notable amount of time, or how long should I milk some enemy generator etc).
Last edited by ganheddo on 21 Nov 2008 18:58, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
ganheddo
 
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 20:19

Unread postby JoshF » 21 Nov 2008 18:35

One objection someone might see is: wouldn't it make sense to load a savestate close to were you died instead of starting from scratch?
If you mastered the early (easy) levels, then what sense would it make to replay them?

This is why I could never use Recap's rule on a looped game. It would be unbearable having to play for twenty minutes plus to get to the part you need practice on, and then slowly inch your way into the loop credit (and twenty minutes) by credit (and twenty minutes). Grinding is for RPGs. This is also why I think loops are stupid in general for a modern game, and games like Death Smiles show how you can have increased difficulty and accessibility at the same time.
Last edited by JoshF on 21 Nov 2008 18:43, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JoshF
 
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:56

Unread postby icycalm » 21 Nov 2008 18:38

Again, using a bad method (continuing) to overcome a bad design decision (loops). But two wrongs don't make a right.

If you want to see the correct way to do loops, look at Mushihime. All the advantages of loops, without the need for continues. Death Smiles, as you say, works great too, from what I hear.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby Gnarf » 21 Nov 2008 19:43

rob dot wrote:A serious player will practice with one credit always in mind. You don't need to punish yourself with tedium to know what the game is throwing at you and what it will take to play properly. You can practice and acknowledge that labeling a run as practice means it isn't a proper run. You don't see anyone saying that they 3-credit cleared a game. Using an additional credit automatically means practice to anyone who uses 1CC as a goal marker (any serious player). If a person knows they will have 5 total lives to work with and they lose 6 practicing one area, they know how hard it is and that they will have to improve. If they know there is life-based bank, they know it will be even harder than that.


My take on it is that the point is that you shouldn't credit-feed, because the game isn't any good if you credit-feed. It's not about using 1CC as a goal marker. It's about how you play the game. I don't see the appeal of playing if failure means "going practice mode" or some such. Credit-feeding my way through the game over and over until I happen to only need one credit seems boring and tedious to me (and that pretty much goes for any in-between solution like using 2-3 continues every once in a while or whatever). It's not about respecting the game's challenge, it's about not bothering playing a bad game.

Also, and I might be wrong about this, but it seems the reason why 1CC is considered legit is that you should play the game without credit-feeding. Not the other way around. It seems backwards to me to buy into the idea of one and not the other.

rob dot wrote:User friendly features like this are only what the player makes of them, just as bombing can be used strategically or in moments of panic. Continues and bombs can both go unused. But without continues people might reject difficult arcade games even faster and I bet they'd still overlook any scoring element more complicated than shoot stuff.


People who don't get arcade games generally consider them "quarter munchers" or some such. Difficulty combined with that continue feature leads them to believe they're supposed to use continues to get through the game. If you took away the continue feature, there'd be nothing to not get. It's not some kind of other way around.
Gnarf
 
Joined: 27 Aug 2008 18:31

Unread postby rob dot » 21 Nov 2008 23:18

icycalm wrote:The continue "feature" has not convinced a SINGLE person that I've heard of to become an arcade fan, whereas the 1CC rule is the only thing that keeps people interested in and playing these games. I had dozens of people email me, and received hundreds of positive responses to my arcade culture article, in this forum and in countless others. Many of those people had no idea that you are not supposed to continue in arcade games.

Yes, it's important that people are told since even the most basic information is not widely available (the problem). Maybe someday they can be told that they can use additional credits while still enjoying the game and playing well. Flexibility is only a bad thing when it completely goes over every reviewer's head, and the common knowledge is not that the games are beatable on one credit but that they are impossible and easy at the same time.

Remove continues. Should people be forced to play for score as well? Should there be a 30 minute in-game tutorial, or could this info be more easily transmitted through communities? Having written or verbal instruction has worked for every other type of game around. Forcing the player is only necessary if there is no one to tell them how to play, and if there is no one to tell them how to play, they will have no one to compete with. These games need competition and community, not attempts at stupid-proof limitations. In addition to that, I think a good shooting game should be open for casual and dedicated play. Being a dedicated fan of the genre doesn't mean I want to put 50+ hours into every crappy scoring system around.

This is why Recap is right. Without continues stuff like that would bother you more. And perhaps it would bother other people too, and then maybe Psikyo would have thought twice about using such, let's just say, "cheap" techniques in later games.

But I am fine with continues and definitely fine with initially cheap tactics not bothering me. I don't want clearing a game on my first play to be a remote chance. If continues have enabled developers like Psikyo and Seibu to create games with bullets and attacks so fast that they appear to be instantaneous and cheap, that's another good thing I think they've done. Knowing 15 minutes of game isn't much to ask of a player. The result is something that packs the excitement in and with minimal filler. I don't want bullets so slow that I can herd them around the screen. Fair = telegraphed.

Gnarf wrote:My take on it is that the point is that you shouldn't credit-feed, because the game isn't any good if you credit-feed. It's not about using 1CC as a goal marker. It's about how you play the game. I don't see the appeal of playing if failure means "going practice mode" or some such.

I've used multiple credits in all of my favorite arcade games and I still enjoy them. I enjoy them most when I'm playing seriously, but it's also fine to not play them seriously and to practice (if you enjoy playing well, practice is a must and continues are a less tedious method). After playing thousands of single credit runs, I get the idea. I really do. After having the idea that an arcade game should be beatable on one credit completely embedded in my mind, I don't need a strict policy of never ever use continues. Training can end at some point and I haven't been a beginner for years.

Losing doesn't automatically mean "going practice mode", using an additional credit does. I only do this when I need to see what is ahead. Considering a single round of a shooter is only about 20-30 minutes, I don't need much of that, so I don't often continue. But the option is there. I can handle uncomplicated options like this without ruining the game for myself and anyone else should be able to do the same.

If you took away the continue feature, there'd be nothing to not get. It's not some kind of other way around.

RE: "Quarter muncher" people. They are just looking for the laziest way to criticize things they don't enjoy. Not given the option to tear through game design, they will call the game impossible and shallow (there's nothing to get).
rob dot
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 11:06

Unread postby Recap » 22 Nov 2008 00:00

-Now zinger, rob and others may claim that continuing helps them get more enjoyment out of mediocre or bad games -- and I can understand this argument. That's like saying that using a Game Genie or Action Replay code or a FAQ or cheat can make a mediocre or bad game less of a waste of time than it is. Fair enough.


Err... Maybe not. I stated it in my previous posts -- Credit feeding, or cheating, can't actually help a bad game; it only can make it worse. I find that quite obvious. If it's structurally a "bad game", you won't be really fixing that by continuing. It indeed will make the "filler" more evident and even can make look as filler parts which actually aren't from a scene-developent perspective. This is the very point of this thread -- reminding all those score-focused players that a video-game is not only about numbers, it's also about "scene development" and that's the natural way to suggest "progress". That's why a stage-select feature is no less than an abomination, by the way.

Then again, if those players _only_ get enjoyment out of numbers, it's up to them, of course. But they're missing an essential part of what a video-game is. That is, except if we're talking about modern subpar pieces such as Giga Wing Generations, Trizeal, Milestone's efforts, etc., etc., I guess.



But then again I never use Game Genies or Action Replay codes or FAQs or cheats of any kind because I always do my damnedest to only play the best games out there. If you are only playing great games, what you want is to spend AS MUCH time with them as possible


And that will always work whenever you know you're sticking to the rules. I wonder how the selective credit-feeding people decide when a game deserves the no-credit-feed-ever class. It must be a real headache.



-To sum up: continuing is a form of cheating, no different from Game Genies, Action Replays and cheat codes, only it is built-in to the game (like many other kinds of cheat codes), and easily available (unlike them).


...So, at the end, the "straight" / "fake" naming convention is perfectly suitable, for its graphicness, if you ask me.


Really liked your post, anyway.



But you guys don't play for score right?


I personally don't unless it's part of the dynamics itself (Radiant Silvergun, Knights of the Round...). I obviously try to enjoy the earlier, non-difficult, otherwise boring stages with score in mind, especially in games with deep/good score systems (Dodon, Espgaluda, Ikaruga...), but the truth is that when I clear a game, I don't find any motivation to keep playing. Give me a working universal record system and I could change my mind, though.



After that though, if someone wants to play around with the rules in a way that allows them to put together one ultimate performance I still don't see the harm.


What about destroying standardization? Universal arcade records make no actual sense under these lax circumstances. Which is a shame, since that could have very well been one of the pillars for arcade games as a solid, never-expiring segment.
Last edited by Recap on 24 Nov 2008 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
Recap
Insomnia Staff
 
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 22:18

Unread postby rob dot » 22 Nov 2008 01:31

recap wrote:That's why a stage-select feature is no less than an abomination, by the way.

Why? Do I suddenly forget what stage number it is or how it fits in with the other stages? I can enjoy a stage as its own unit since they are divided that way. In a game like Mars Matrix, chains do not carry over so each stage is mastered and can be enjoyed individually. Games should be praised for their versatility rather than simply the sequencing of their fire and ice stages (in the most perfect order that I wouldn't dream of rearranging). ...And the natural way to suggest progress is to make the next stage more difficult.

...So, at the end, the "straight" / "fake" naming convention is perfectly suitable, for its graphicness, if you ask me.

One time I used a Game Genie to play through Thunder Force III when I was 10 years old. Ten years later I rediscovered the game and beat it on one credit. Upon sensing the incurable Game Genie disease I carry with me, the game didn't let me see the credits (as punishment). On the high score chart it said FALSIFICARE where my entry should've been. You should try it.

When you mentioned this before, a few people gave you decisive answers why this was ridiculous and unnecessary. It remains so. The major problem with your idea is that you can't explain it in a way other than "I enjoy it this way and so should you" and as the protector of games you didn't make. You don't know what elements they wanted or didn't want to include, how the end result was shaped by it being an arcade game. Of course, if it wasn't for continues they would all be the perfect visions of their creators.

You don't have to worry about standardization, the (real) one credit rule is the standard. It's been working for many years and it doesn't need anyone to fix it. Not everyone wants to play through a picture book and throw the game away when they see the credits. I know! Versatility is good. Why is it always the person on the outside who thinks they know best? Play more games for score before offering any suggestions please. Not just the first two levels, the entire game, so you can see clearly why practice is beneficial.
rob dot
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 11:06

Unread postby icycalm » 22 Nov 2008 16:22

rob dot wrote:
recap wrote:That's why a stage-select feature is no less than an abomination, by the way.


Why?


Because the desire to see what happens next is among the top three reasons to play a videogame. A stage select feature takes that away. Of course it is clear now that you can't understand that, because you are among the few people who do not get any enjoyment from seeing what happens next. Too bad, I guess. Or whatever. But the fact remains.

rob dot wrote:Do I suddenly forget what stage number it is or how it fits in with the other stages? I can enjoy a stage as its own unit since they are divided that way. In a game like Mars Matrix, chains do not carry over so each stage is mastered and can be enjoyed individually. Games should be praised for their versatility rather than simply the sequencing of their fire and ice stages (in the most perfect order that I wouldn't dream of rearranging). ...And the natural way to suggest progress is to make the next stage more difficult.


All of this is rubbish reasoning worthy of Shmups.com. You are just trying to defend your desire to mess with the structure of a game by adding "selectable everything". Granted, your desire to mess with a game, any game, is understandable, and it is shared by many others -- but it is covered by hacking and emulation, without the need to spoil everyone else's fun by adding a giant "selectable everything" menu right on the fucking start screen. But this is another thing which it is clear now that you are incapable of understanding.

Recap wrote:...So, at the end, the "straight" / "fake" naming convention is perfectly suitable, for its graphicness, if you ask me.


Yeah, I can see that now.

rob dot wrote:When you mentioned this before, a few people gave you decisive answers why this was ridiculous and unnecessary. It remains so. The major problem with your idea is that you can't explain it in a way other than "I enjoy it this way and so should you" and as the protector of games you didn't make. You don't know what elements they wanted or didn't want to include, how the end result was shaped by it being an arcade game. Of course, if it wasn't for continues they would all be the perfect visions of their creators.


More Shmups.com rubbish. Those "people" you mention are morons and we have given you here plenty of reasons why Recap's point is a valid and very important one. And what the fuck does the fact that Recap didn't make these games have to do with anything? And the last line is school playground-level nonsense too. Look, I have removed Recap's one offensive comment against you, which might have prompted this reply, but I am warning you: think very carefully before you post again. We don't need childish posts here. The rest of the internet is already full of them, so gimme a break and help me keep this one little corner nonsense- and childishness-free.

rob dot wrote:You don't have to worry about standardization, the (real) one credit rule is the standard. It's been working for many years and it doesn't need anyone to fix it. Not everyone wants to play through a picture book and throw the game away when they see the credits. I know!


Meh. You know a lot of stuff about shooters, and some stuff about games in general, but on this very important point we are discussing you know fuck-all. And your pathetic "picture-book" comparison is not in any way helping you understand.

Picture books are good! The whole world is a fucking picture book when you get down to it. Meh. I am wasting my words. You just don't deserve the eyes (and perhaps even ears and nose) that God gave you.

rob dot wrote:Versatility is good.


Up to a point -- as I have explained to you. Continuing, stage selects and the like are way past that.

rob dot wrote:Why is it always the person on the outside who thinks they know best?


If you seriously think that Recap is "on the outside" you are a fucking moron.

rob dot wrote:Play more games for score before offering any suggestions please.


What the fuck does "play for score" even means? It is already clear from his remarks that he DOES play for score. And so do I. Our scoring prowess perhaps doesn't impress you? Well then maybe you should go back to discussing things with the morons on Shmups who are better scorers than us. Look at how profound and perspicacious their discussions are! Clearly, the higher one scores the better his inquiring, deductive and reasoning skills must be.

rob dot wrote:Not just the first two levels, the entire game, so you can see clearly why practice is beneficial.


Has anyone here claimed that "practice is not beneficial"? Did I perhaps miss that comment? If not, why the fuck are you refuting a claim no one even made?
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby icycalm » 22 Nov 2008 16:48

And I just want to draw more attention to this point:

Recap wrote:This is the very point of this thread -- reminding all those score-focused players that a video-game is not only about numbers, it's also about "scene development" and that's the natural way to suggest "progress".


... which explains a hell of a lot. This is why stuff like Asteroids and Space Invaders evolved to stage-based shooters, and why the genre's popularity exploded as a result. This is also the main reason that -- mechanics aside -- stuff like Geometry Wars et al. is not very interesting to us: because in terms of "scene development" they are a giant step backwards.

"Scene development" sounds nice. I think I will adopt this term :)
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby icycalm » 22 Nov 2008 16:52

So basically we have to remind mainstream fuckwads that videogames are not only about pretty pictures, and score-focused fuckwads that they are not only about skill. If the first group dominates game design we get interactive screen-savers; if the second does we get action-based spreadsheets.

This has been a very enlightening thread for me. Thanks for starting it, Recap.
User avatar
icycalm
Hyperborean
 
Joined: 28 Mar 2006 00:08
Location: Tenerife, Canary Islands

Unread postby rob dot » 23 Nov 2008 06:28

icycalm wrote:Because the desire to see what happens next is among the top three reasons to play a videogame. A stage select feature takes that away.

When I have RE5, what happens next will be in my top 3 reasons to play it.

Arcade shooters aren't typical of video games in general, which is why I like them the most. They are reliable and I know what to expect from series to series. I use the abilities I've been given on stage one for the rest of the game and the difficulty increases. That is a winning formula. A long, story-based game can mix (or mess) things up with new abilities, characters, items, game styles and plot twists, so what happens next is far less predictable. I shoot stuff and score points, the background graphics change for no reason other than it's a new stage. The boss can look like a dragon or ship while shooting things. Not a whole lot to go wrong or a whole lot to impress with.

I like the genre because I can predict what happens next. It's good that way.

Just looking at the graphics -- impressive, imaginative graphics are such a rare thing in shooters. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy them when they are there or that it doesn't factor in my overall impression. I'm playing Ninja Gaiden II on the 360 right now and small budget 2D shooters can't compete with those visuals. But they can potentially have something much better than that. In games that last an average of 25 minutes (and can be cleared in a day or a week without continues), there is not a lot to show. It's an insignificant amount of time compared to what a player can put in and get from it.

Stage select takes nothing away since it is not used (or even available) until the stage has been reached in a normal game. "What happens next" will already be spoiled.

And what the fuck does the fact that Recap didn't make these games have to do with anything?

Arcade shooters include continues. How many times has their inclusion been challenged? Is anyone really telling me that all of those developers include continues and don't want the player to use them? The intended way. If they allow a game-ruining feature like that into a game, what else did they not want to include? That doesn't say much for the intention of the designer and less for a person who thinks they know what the designer's intention actually is. He's saying they failed their own game. Maybe they would all rather be making a horsey sim or console shooter with more ships than R-Type Final.

I don't care what they failed to include or leave out. I judge and enjoy games as they are released (arcade or home port). They include continues to take or leave. Score is an explicitly stated objective for many games. He only bothers with this to make early stages less boring, but he is really adamant about something he assumes they want you to do. Yet I'm ruining the game (scene development) by working towards the clear objective and not what I'm told they actually meant for me to do, maybe, but failed to prohibit. Not playing score-based games for score is what ruins games.

What the fuck does "play for score" even means? It is already clear from his remarks that he DOES play for score.

Understand at least the basic techniques and apply them from beginning to end of a score-based game. It's the scene development of doing stuff for numbers. It's to place score above clearing the game. He says he has no incentive to continue after he finishes a game, which means he doesn't. Not my loss, but avoid telling anyone how to play or maintain their high score listings because people don't like armchair advice. Not that straight/fake will make its way to any threads. This is just one reason people don't take to this idea.

Has anyone here claimed that "practice is not beneficial"? Did I perhaps miss that comment? If not, why the fuck are you refuting a claim no one even made?

You've both agreed with each other that using continues is like using a cheat device. So the most efficient practicing method a game allows is cheating to you. You must see that the continue-as-Game Genie thing discourages practice. So you might not disagree that it's beneficial, you just don't want people to do it. In context, I meant that he'd be much less critical if he accepted the challenge of mastering a game that has more layers than just shoot stuff. Or don't. Games like Ketsui are made for people who take advantage of everything they can.


Geometry Wars is fun and not bad to look at, either.

By the way, how does scene development work in a game like UN Squadron? I mean, is it a bad game if they make you choose stages? Do you select the same order every time? How do you decide on the order? What about randomized stages where you don't even get to choose? Questions go to Recap.
rob dot
 
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 11:06

PreviousNext

Return to Theory