Moderator: JC Denton
by xwd » 07 Mar 2008 21:40
by icycalm » 07 Mar 2008 21:52
xwd wrote:Okay, I'm going to see if I understand what you're trying to say.
xwd wrote:The question "Can games be art?" has the answer "Yes, and so can everything else." If the answer doesn't make sense, it's because the question doesn't make sense either since we can't accurately describe art with words.
Only good games are art. People who call bad games "art" are trying to make the games something special when they're not. Saying a game is good just because it's "art" is fooling yourself from the truth. See the game for what it is.
If it's a piece of crap but looks beautiful, then say it's a horrible game but it looks beautiful, this kind of merges with the "gameplay" article from a few months ago. (Using the word "gameplay" is stupid because the "gameplay" IS the game and above all is what the purpose of the game is.)
All games have messages. Some are just more obvious than others.
xwd wrote:Most of this philosophy stuff seems to be going over my head, though I think I can understand some of it.
by Zantra » 08 Mar 2008 00:09
by CosMind » 08 Mar 2008 05:04
by icycalm » 08 Mar 2008 12:15
CosMind wrote:Art is a perspective. Perspective leads to opinion. Opinions don't warrant question or opposition (however, they often make for interesting discussion).
CosMind wrote:Thoughtful article, by the way. I learned quite a bit reading through the quotes you included.
Zantra wrote:If people still don't understand what you're getting at, then they probably shouldn't be here.
by CosMind » 08 Mar 2008 16:05
icycalm wrote:The next question of course would have to be, "So which kinds of games are art then?", and the answer to that question should by now be obviously, "The good ones." So Deus Ex is art, Elite is art, and Ketsui is art. Wing Commander and Pikmin and Master of Magic are art, et cetera, et cetera.
Wittgenstein wrote:6.5 When the answer cannot be put into words, neither can the question be put into words. The riddle does not exist. If a question can be framed at all, it is also possible to answer it.
by icycalm » 08 Mar 2008 16:32
CosMind wrote:The next question of course would have to be, "So which kinds of games are art then?", and the answer to that question should by now be obviously, "The good ones." So Deus Ex is art, Elite is art, and Ketsui is art. Wing Commander and Pikmin and Master of Magic are art, et cetera, et cetera.
I read this statement as a collection of opinions and/or preferences toward a number of games. Primarily because of the "good ones" label. Now, that adjective "good" can (and often is) used as a subjective label (unfortunately!). While an educated player may use it to describe technical proficiency within a game, the common player likely uses it to state, "I like this game" (regardless of its quality). In turn, those folks may consider the games that they feel are good games to be art (perspective/opinion). Even though folks that view games from a more nuanced viewpoint (which I assume most of us here do) may (and likely do) disagree, is it worth questioning the others' opinion? Is it worth trying to change their mind?
What is art to one may not be art to another.
CosMind wrote:opinions don't warrant question or opposition (however, they often make for interesting discussion).
by icycalm » 08 Mar 2008 16:41
Evo wrote:And so he shows the way out of the fly bottle...!
But some of them just keep banging against the glass...
by CosMind » 08 Mar 2008 17:06
icycalm wrote:... implies unfathomable stupidity. I am sorry CosMind, but I have to tell it like it is. This is a serious thread, and whoever can't face the music shouldn't be posting in it. I am not saying you in particular can't face the music -- so far you are taking it very well -- I am only saying it so that you don't flip out on me for calling your statement stupid, and force me to ban you like the others.
by Bradford » 29 Sep 2008 19:10
by icycalm » 29 Sep 2008 19:31
Humble argues that a set of rules by itself can communicate meaning and achieve the status of art.
by icycalm » 30 Sep 2008 13:40
by Volteccer_Jack » 01 Oct 2008 00:56
icycalm wrote:The clarifications and additional Tractatus quotes will doubtless be helpful to many, despite the fact that they are not really necessary in order for the article to make sense.
Wittgenstein wrote:6.125 It is possible -- indeed possible even according to the old conception of logic -- to give in advance a description of all 'true' logical propositions.
...
6.1262 Proof in logic is merely a mechanical expedient to facilitate the recognition of tautologies in complicated cases.
by icycalm » 02 Feb 2009 11:35
Pauline Kael wrote:Movie art is not the opposite of what we have always enjoyed in movies, it is not to be found in a return to that official high culture, it is what we have always found good in movies only more so.
Pauline Kael might as well have written wrote:Videogame art is not the opposite of what we have always enjoyed in games, it is not to be found in a return to that official high culture, it is what we have always found good in games only more so.
I wrote:The next question of course would have to be, "So which kinds of games are art then?", and the answer to that question should by now be obviously, "The good ones." So Deus Ex is art, Elite is art, and Ketsui is art. Wing Commander and Pikmin and Master of Magic are art, et cetera, et cetera.
by icycalm » 02 Feb 2009 15:02
Pauline Kael wrote:“The Thomas Crown Affair” is pretty good trash, but we shouldn’t convert what we enjoy it for into false terms derived from our study of the other arts. That’s being false to what we enjoy. If it was priggish for an older generation of reviewers to be ashamed of what they enjoyed and to feel they had to be contemptuous of popular entertainment, it’s even more priggish for a new movie generation to be so proud of what they enjoy that they use their education to try to place trash within the acceptable academic tradition.
by icycalm » 12 Oct 2009 23:09
by icycalm » 14 Oct 2009 18:42
by icycalm » 14 Oct 2009 19:02
Brendan Lee wrote:Those industry jokes I mentioned -- Takeshi, Desert Bus -- are not fun games. If they were, they'd be entirely above any type of criticism. This has always been the deciding factor; if a game is fun, it's a good game. If it's not fun, it's bad. This, though, is an almost farcically bad way to judge art. Art is as expressive as language itself -- more, even. It can disgust people, or inspire awe, or make children think about cats. To limit game design to what people find entertaining is to admit defeat before you code your first INCLUDE statement.
Pauline Kael wrote:Movie art is not the opposite of what we have always enjoyed in movies, it is not to be found in a return to that official high culture, it is what we have always found good in movies only more so.
by icycalm » 14 Oct 2009 20:20
by Khazar » 15 Oct 2009 02:33
The past has been completely strip-mined. Emulation, roms, homebrew; everything we so desperately needed at age eight hovers within the most half-hearted grasp. Video games are everywhere; the perceived value drops like a fucking rock
by icycalm » 15 Oct 2009 14:53
by hyac » 16 Oct 2009 06:31
icycalm wrote:The next question of course would have to be, "So which kinds of games are art then?", and the answer to that question should by now be obviously, "The good ones." So Deus Ex is art, Elite is art, and Ketsui is art. Wing Commander and Pikmin and Master of Magic are art, et cetera, et cetera.