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Baudrillard on Art

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Baudrillard on Art

Unread postby raphael » 09 Sep 2008 09:56

http://insomnia.ac/essays/the_conspiracy_of_art/

This really serves as a good introduction. Thanks.

Maybe the french readers would prefer to read the original text.
On the web I found only copies with many typos so I copied it here and corrected it.

Jean Baudrillard wrote:Le complot de l'art

Si dans la pornographie ambiante s'est perdue l'illusion du désir, dans l'art contemporain s'est perdu le désir de l'illusion. Dans le porno, rien ne laisse plus à désirer. Après l'orgie et la libération de tous les désirs, nous sommes passés dans le transsexuel, au sens d'une transparence du sexe, dans des signes et des images qui en effacent tout le secret et toute l'ambiguïté. Transsexuel au sens où ça n'a plus rien à voir avec l'illusion du désir, mais avec l'hyperréalité de l'image.

Ainsi de l'art, qui lui aussi a perdu le désir de l'illusion, au profit d'une élévation de toutes choses à la banalité esthétique, et qui donc est devenu transesthétique. Pour l'art, l'orgie de la modernité a consisté dans l'allégresse de la déconstruction de l'objet et de la représentation. Pendant cette période, l'illusion esthétique est encore très puissante, comme l'est, pour le sexe, l'illusion du désir. A l'énergie de la différence sexuelle, qui passe dans toutes les figures du désir, correspond, pour l'art, l'énergie de dissociation de la réalité (le cubisme, l'abstraction, l'expressionnisme), l'une et l'autre correspondant pourtant à une volonté de forcer le secret du désir et le secret de l'objet. Jusqu'à la disparition de ces deux configurations fortes - la scène du désir, la scène de l'illusion - au profit de la même obscénité transsexuelle, transesthétique - celle de la visibilité, de la transparence inexorable de toutes choses. En réalité, il n'y a plus de pornographie repérable en tant que telle, parce que la pornographie est virtuellement partout, parce que l'essence du pornographique est passée dans toutes les techniques du visuel et du télévisuel.

Mais peut-être, au fond, ne faisons-nous que nous jouer la comédie de l'art, comme d'autres sociétés se sont joué la comédie de l'idéologie, comme la société italienne par exemple (mais elle n'est pas la seule) se joue la comédie du pouvoir, comme nous nous jouons la comédie du porno dans la publicité obscène des images du corps féminin. Ce strip-tease perpétuel, -ces phantasmes à sexe ouvert, ce chantage sexuel - si tout cela était vrai, ce serait réellement insupportable. Mais, heureusement, tout cela est trop évident pour être vrai. La transparence est trop belle pour être vraie. Quant à l'art, il est trop superficiel pour être vraiment nul. Il doit y avoir un mystère là-dessous. Comme pour l'anamorphose : il doit y avoir un angle sous lequel toute cette débauche inutile de sexe et de signes prend tout son sens mais, pour l'instant, nous ne pouvons que le vivre dans l'indifférence ironique. Il y a, dans cette irréalité du porno, dans cette insignifiance de l'art, une énigme en négatif, un mystère en filigrane, qui sait ? une forme ironique de notre destin ? Si tout devient trop évident pour être vrai, peut-être reste-t-il une chance pour l'illusion. Qu'est-ce qui est tapi derrière ce monde faussement transparent ? Une autre sorte d'intelligence ou une lobotomie définitive ?

L'art (moderne) a pu faire partie de la part maudite, en étant une sorte d'alternative dramatique à la réalité, en traduisant l'irruption de l'irréalité dans la réalité. Mais que peut encore signifier l'art dans un monde hyperréaliste d'avance, cool, transparent, publicitaire ? Que peut signifier le porno dans un monde pornographique d'avance ? Sinon nous lancer un dernier clin d'oeil paradoxal - celui de la réalité qui se rit d'elle-même sous sa forme la plus hyperréaliste ? - celui du sexe qui se rit de lui-même sous sa forme la plus exhibitionniste, celui de l'art qui se rit de lui-même et de sa propre disparition sous sa forme la plus artificielle : l'ironie. De toute façon, la dictature des images est une dictature ironique. Mais cette ironie elle-même ne fait plus partie de la part maudite, elle fait partie du délit d'initié, de cette complicité occulte et honteuse qui lie l'artiste jouant de son aura de dérision avec les masses stupéfiées et incrédules. L'ironie aussi fait partie du complot de l'art.

L'art jouant de sa propre disparition et de celle de son objet, c'était encore un grand oeuvre. Mais l'art jouant à se recycler indéfiniment en faisant main basse sur la réalité ? Or la majeure partie de l'art contemporain s'emploie exactement à cela : à s'approprier la banalité, le déchet, la médiocrité comme valeur et comme idéologie. Dans ces innombrables installations, performances, il n'y a qu'un jeu de compromis avec l'état des choses, en même temps qu'avec toutes les formes passées de l'histoire de l'art. Un aveu d'inoriginalité, de banalité et de nullité, érigé en valeur, voire en jouissance esthétique perverse. Bien sûr, toute cette médiocrité prétend se sublimer en passant au niveau second et ironique de l'art. Mais c'est tout aussi nul et insignifiant au niveau second qu'au premier. Le passage au niveau esthétique ne sauve rien, bien au contraire : c'est une médiocrité à la puissance deux. Ça prétend être nul : Je suis nul ! Je suis nul ! - et c'est vraiment nul.

Toute la duplicité de l'art contemporain est là : revendiquer la nullité, l'insignifiance, le non-sens, viser la nullité alors qu'on est déjà nul. Viser le non-sens alors qu'on est déjà insignifiant. Prétendre à la superficialité en des termes superficiels.

Or la nullité est une qualité secrète qui ne saurait être revendiquée par n'importe qui. L'insignifiance - la vraie, le défi victorieux au sens, le dénuement du sens, l'art de la disparition du sens - est une qualité exceptionnelle de quelques oeuvres rares, et qui n'y prétendent jamais. Il y a une forme initiatique de la nullité, comme il y a une forme initiatique du rien, ou une forme initiatique du Mal. Et puis, il y a le délit d'initié, les faussaires de la nullité, le snobisme de la nullité, de tous ceux qui prostituent le Rien à la valeur, qui prostituent le Mal à des fins utiles. Il ne faut pas laisser faire les faussaires. Quand le Rien affleure dans les signes, quand le Néant émerge au coeur même du système de signes, ça, c'est l'évènement fondamental de l'art. C'est proprement l'opération poétique que de faire surgir le Rien à la puissance du signe - non pas la banalité ou l'indifférencve du réel, mais l'illusion radicale. Ainsi Andy Warhol est vraiment nul, en ce sens qu'il réintroduit le néant au coeur de l'image. Il fait de la nullité et de l'insignifiance un évènement qu'il transforme en une stratégie fatale de l'image.

Les autres n'ont qu'une stratégie commerciele de la nullité, à laquelle ils donnent une forme publicitaire, la forme sentimentale de la marchandise, comme disait Baudelaire. Ils se cachent derrière leur propre nullité et derrière les métastases du discours sur l'art qui s'emploie généreusement à faire valoir cette nullité comme valeur (y compris sur le marché de l'art, évidemment). Dans un sens, c'est pire que rien, puisque ça ne signifie rien et que ça existe quand même, en se donnant toutes les bonnes raisons d'exister. Cette paranoïa complice de l'art fait qu'il n'y a plus de jugement critique possible, et seulement un partage à l'amiable, forcément convivial, de la nullité. C'est là le complot de l'art et sa scène primitive, relayée par tous les vernissages, accrochages, expositions, restaurations, collections, donations et spéculations, et qui ne peut se dénouer dans aucun univers connu, puisque derrière la mystification des images il s'est mis à l'abri de la pensée.

L'autre versant de cette duplicité, c'est, par le bluff à la nullité, de forcer les gens, à contrario, à donner de l'importance et du crédit à tout cela, sous le prétexte qu'il n'est pas possible que ce soit aussi nul, et que ça doit cacher quelque chose. L'art contemporain joue de cette incertitude,de l'impossibilité d'un jugement de valeur esthétique fondé, et spécule sur la culpabilité de ceux qui n'y comprennent rien, ou qui n'ont pas compris qu'il n'y avait rien à comprendre. Là aussi, délit d'initié. Mais, au fond, on peut penser aussi que ces gens, que l'art tient en respect, ont tout compris, puisqu'ils témoignent, par leur stupéfaction même, d'une intelligence intuitive: celle d'être victimes d'un abus de pouvoir, qu'on leur cache les règles du jeu et qu'on leur fait un enfant dans le dos. Autrement dit, l'art est entré (non seulement du point de vue financier du marché de l'art, mais dans la gestion même des valeurs esthétiques) dans le processus général du délit d'initié. Il n'est pas seul en cause : la politique, l'économie, l'information jouissent de la même complicité et de la même résignation ironique du côté des consommateurs.

"Notre admiration pour la peinture est la conséquence d'un long processus d'adaptation qui s'est opéré pendant des siècles, et pour des raisons qui très souvent n'ont rien à voir avec l'art ni l'esprit. La peinture a créé son récepteur. C'est au fond une relation conventionnelle" (Gombrowicz à Dubuffet). La seule question, c'est: comment une telle machine peut-elle continuer de fonctionner dans la désillusion critique et dans la frénésie commerciale? Et si oui, combien de temps va durer cet illusionnisme, cet occultisme - cent ans, deux cents ans ? L'art aura-t-il droit à une existence seconde, interminable - semblable en cela aux services secrets, dont on sait qu'ils n'ont plus depuis longtemps de secrets à voler ou à échanger, mais qui n'en fleurissent pas moins, en pleine superstition de leur utilité, et en défrayant la chronique mythologique.

Jean Baudrillard

sociologue, écrivain - Paris, Fr.

(texte paru dans Libération en 1996, le 20 mai 1996)

There may be a few typos left, I am still hunting them. If you spot one just tell me through private message.
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Unread postby Bradford » 09 Sep 2008 15:23

I very much enjoyed what little of that I was able to understand. I'm sure I will read it several more times.

If anyone would mind sharing, I would very much like to know whose work Baudrillard is criticising. That is, some context would be very interesting to me, who can't discern any difference in merit between one guy's random paint splatters and another's giant canvas that's all one color with a line down the middle. I don't even know if that's the kind of display that he's criticising, or something else entirely.
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Unread postby raphael » 09 Sep 2008 15:38

To your defense, the translation is not very good, and makes it a little harder to read and understand than the original. Though it's nothing really problematic.

You should be able to understand it.

Just ask for the meaning of a particular sentence if you need.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 00:31

raphael wrote:To your defense, the translation is not very good


Dude, the translation is great. You can never get 100% equivalence between languages anyway. Past a certain point, the only thing you get from different translations is different errors introduced by the different translators.

raphael wrote:You should be able to understand it.


If he -- or anyone else reading this website -- fully understood it there would be no reason for me to write anything. In fact not even the translator fully understands it, so let's just leave it at that.

raphael wrote:Just ask for the meaning of a particular sentence if you need.


I could use dozens, but this will amply prove my point:

Transsexual, in the sense that it now has nothing to do with the illusion of desire, only with the hyperreality of the image.


I doubt there are even a dozen people currently living who can "explain" this statement, and I am positive none of them read this website.

...

To get a bit more serious: Bradford, my man, just hold on a day or so and I will post another essay which should shed some light on this one. In the meantime, here is basically the main thing you should take away from all of this:

The flip side of this duplicity is, through the bluff on nullity, to force people a contrario to give it all some importance and credit under the pretext that there is no way it could be so null, that it must be hiding something. Contemporary art makes use of this uncertainty, of the impossibility of grounding aesthetic value judgments and speculates on the guilt of those who do not understand it or who have not realized that there is nothing to understand.


All the difficult parts in this essay are difficult because they link up with other parts of Baudrillard's philosophy NOT contained in the essay, so it is impossible to even begin to understand them without having read a lot more of his work. A lot of the terminology he uses, for example, is explained in his early work, especially The Consumer Society and Symbolic Exchange and Death.
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Unread postby Molloy » 10 Sep 2008 14:03

My understanding of all this is quite primitive so I at the risk of being banned to oblivion I might ask a couple of questions. Has this anything to do with Aestheticism? "All art is quite useless" as Oscar Wilde said. "Art for arts sake" and that sort of thing.

The main failing in contemporary art for me is that so little time and labour goes into it. You look at contemporary architecture and it's sleek and minimal by necessity, not by design. Maybe in somewhere like Dubai they have practically free labour and incredible amounts of money but the constructions are still being designed to be thrown up in an incredibly short amount of time.

Just out of curiousity why do you choose to write for a games audience Icy? If you made a philosophy website wouldn't you be more likely to run into people with a better grounding in the subjects you enjoy discussing?
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Unread postby Bradford » 10 Sep 2008 15:00

icycalm wrote:All the difficult parts in this essay are difficult because they link up with other parts of Baudrillard's philosophy NOT contained in the essay, so it is impossible to even begin to understand them without having read a lot more of his work.


Yes, exactly. I think that Raphael may have misunderstood what I was asking. Because I was aware that I couldn't access a great deal of the essay without a lot more time and study, I thought perhaps I could at least gain some insight right now if someone could explain a little of the context in which Baudrillard wrote it, by citing some of the artists or works of art that Baudrillard is criticising.

For example, Baudrillard referenced Warhol's work as an example of art that succeeded in accomplishing ... something (I won't try summarize what it is) - he "is truly null" as opposed to some "other artists." I was just wondering, who are some of those other artists who Baudrillard argues are "confiscating banality, waste and mediocrity as values and ideologies?" The part of the essay dealing with this made some sense to me, but I'd like know who or what are the subjects of his criticism.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 16:08

He means pretty much everyone. That's why he doesn't name names. It would be pointless. He means every artist who claims to be creating Art and not just simply paintings, buildings, music or whatever. The point is that with Duchamp and Warhol Art came to an end: Duchamp's Fountain and Warhol's brand of Pop Art were the last true works of Art. These inaugurated the era of transaesthetics, in which "there is no longer any God to recognize his own", i.e. in which it is impossible to ground aesthetic judgements, and in which, "therefore, inasmuch as we have access to neither the beautiful nor the ugly, and are incapable of judging, we are condemned to indifference."

The deeper reason for the current predicament is that History at some point came to an end (the exact point is debatable -- I'd say the end of WWII, but it doesn't really matter), and History and Art go together. You can't have one without the other.

Now as to WHY history came to an end -- well, because events came to an end. Those facts that today are called events are really non-events.

As to the difference between event and non-event -- read Baudrillard's essay "Event and non-event" in In the Shadow of the Silent Majorities. I'll just quote a passage that will give you an idea:


We must retain the event's radical definition and its impact on the imagination. It is characterized, in a paradoxical way, in terms of the uncanny. It is the irruption of something improbable and impossible as well as disquietingly familiar: it appears at once with complete obviousness, as if predestined, as if it could not fail to place. There is something there that seems to have come from elsewhere, something fatal, that nothing can stop.

It is for this reason, at once complex and contradictory, that it mobilizes the imagination with such compelling force. It shatters the continuity of things and, at the same time, it enters the real with stupefying ease.

Bergson experienced the event of the First World War in that way. Before it broke it appeared at once probable and impossible (the analogy with the suspense over the war in Iraq is complete). And he felt at once a feeling of stupefaction for the ease with which so momentous an eventuality could pass from the abstract to the concrete, from the virtual to the real. The same paradox can be found in the mix of jubilation and terror that marked, in a more or less unspoken way, the event of September 11th. This was the feeling that seized us before the occurrence of something that came to be without having been possible.

Usually, things should first be possible, and only then manifest themselves. This is the logical and chronological order. But then, precisely, they are no longer events in the strongest sense of this word. Such is the case with the war in Iraq: utterly expected, programmed, anticipated, prescribed and modeled, it had exhausted all of its possibilities before even having taken place. It will have been so possible that it no longer needed to have taken place. There is nothing event-like about it. Nothing about it betrays the exaltation and the experience of dread experienced in the radical event of September 11th, which resembles the feeling of the sublime that Kant talks about. The non-event of the war only leaves us with a feeling of mystification and nausea.

Here something like a metaphysics of the event should be introduced, again following Bergson's cues. He was asked if it was possible that a great work would appear, he replied: no, it is not possible, it is not yet possible, it will become possible once it has appeared. "When a talented person or a genius appears, creates a work -- he makes it real, and thereby makes it retrospectively, retroactively possible." Transposed onto the event, this means first that it has taken place, ex nihilo in some way, unforeseen, and then only can one conceive of it as possible. Such is the temporal paradox, the inverted temporality that designates the event as such. Usually we conceive of an ascendant line which goes from the impossible to the possible, then to the real. What designates the true event is precisely that the real and the possible happen simultaneously and that the possibility of imagining it is immediate. But this belongs in the order of the living event, of a living temporality, of a depth of time that no longer exists at all in real time. Real time is the violence done to time, violence done to the event. With the instantaneity of the virtual and the precession of models, the entire depth of the field of duration, of origin, and of the end that is taken away from us -- it is the loss of a perpetually deferred time in favor of an immediate and irremediable time.

It suffices to concentrate entirely on an immediate reality, while accentuating the simultaneity of all the networks and all the points of the globe, to reduce time to its smallest basic element: the moment -- no longer even a "present" moment since it incarnates the absolute reality of time in its total abstraction -- prevails against the irruption of every event and against the eventuality of death.

Such is "real time," that of communication, of information, and of perpetual interaction: the most beautiful space for the deterrence of time and events.

On the screen of real time, with a simple digital manipulation, every possibility is realized virtually, which brings an end to their possibility. Via electronics and cybernetics, every desire, every game of identity and every potential interactivity is programmed and self-programmed. That everything should be realized from the outset forbids the emergence of some singular event. Such is the violence of real time, which is also that of information.

Real Time dematerializes the future as well as the past, dematerializes historic time, pulverizes real events: the Holocaust, Y2K, that never took place, that will not have taken place. It even pulverizes current events in the news, which are only instantaneous image-feedback. The news drapes itself in the illusion of the present, of presence -- it is the illusion of the live in the media, as well as the horizon of the disappearance of real events.

Hence the dilemma that every image we receive provokes, uncertainty over the truth of events, from the moment that the news is involved. In as much as they are at once part and perpetrator of the phenomenal unfolding, the news creates the event. The event of the news substitutes itself for news of the event.

The historic time of the event, the psychological time of the affect, the subjective time of judgment and will, the objective time of reality, are all put in question simultaneously by real time.

There used to be a subject of history, a subject of knowledge, a subject of power, but all this has disappeared in the cancellation of distance, of the pathos of distance, by real time, in the integral realization of the world through information.

...

Only events liberated from information (and us with them) create great yearning. Only these are "real", because nothing can explain them, and our entire imagination is ready to greet them.
Last edited by icycalm on 10 Sep 2008 16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 16:27

Molloy wrote:Has this anything to do with Aestheticism? "All art is quite useless" as Oscar Wilde said. "Art for arts sake" and that sort of thing.


That quote from Wilde is clearly wrong. Wilde often put the effect of a witty saying above clarity and truthfulness, so many of his sayings are just simply wrong. Very witty, but wrong. And "Art for art's sake" is also wrong (you missed an apostrophe there). It's too tedious a subject for me to go into right now, but basically, anything done "for its own sake" is wrong. It betrays some sort of weakness, some kind of impotence.

Molloy wrote:The main failing in contemporary art for me is that so little time and labour goes into it. You look at contemporary architecture and it's sleek and minimal by necessity, not by design. Maybe in somewhere like Dubai they have practically free labour and incredible amounts of money but the constructions are still being designed to be thrown up in an incredibly short amount of time.


I don't see what time has to with it. Architecture is architecture and has always been architecture. There are different styles. Some cost more than others. You pick depending on your wealth and taste. The reason most new buildings are ugly is because people have very little of either.

Molloy wrote:Just out of curiousity why do you choose to write for a games audience Icy? If you made a philosophy website wouldn't you be more likely to run into people with a better grounding in the subjects you enjoy discussing?


This is an incredibly low level of thinking. You don't even have a clue what philosophy is. Philosophy is the art of thinking well. It doesn't matter WHAT you write about -- if you dig deep enough, if your analysis is deep enough, you will always arrive at the great philosophical issues, which are always the only real issues, the only issues worth discussing. This stems from the fact that everything in the world is connected with everything else. To analyze ONE thing and one thing only is to analyze fantasies. Analyzing fantasies can be fun and useful, but can only get you so far. There comes a time when you must face the real issues -- which necessarily means ALL of them.

So I HAVE INDEED made a "philosophy website". As for writing for a "games audience", well, actually, I write for very intelligent people. And you know, to a certain extent, the things I say and I will say are going to be quite difficult to understand even by those who have "a better grounding" in philosophy exactly because they have a better grounding in philosophy. (This is because most of philosophy is bullshit.)
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Unread postby Molloy » 10 Sep 2008 17:10

I understand that philosophy relates to any good writing. You just often complain that not many people understand the concepts you're discussing. I was just wondering wasn't there a more efficient way to target that audience of people. The overlap of people who've got an interest in obscure Japanese strategy games and who've read Baudrillard's early work isn't going to be very large.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 19:34

Dude what are you, retarded? I only talk about obscure Japanese strategy games? I only discuss Baudrillard's early work?

What I am doing is saying things that need to be said. Whatever pertains to those things will necessarily be brought up. End of story.

Listen, do me a favor and stay away from serious threads. You've got nothing to contribute and quite frankly I find your questions offensive. "Why don't you write about philosophy instead of games?" "Why don't you blah blah blah (something stupid)"" "Why, why, why." Go suck a donkey's dick you stupid motherfucker. It's not my fault you are too dense to see the connections.

So either take a hike or confine yourself to threads about specific games. I am sure you can handle those. If you hadn't been one of the first people to sign up to this forum you'd have already been banned.
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Unread postby raphael » 10 Sep 2008 21:14

Icycalm, I am sorry, but I believe your reaction to Molloy is unnecessarily violent.

I think it's easy to imagine he really doesn't know anything about the phylosophical circles, and so doesn't realize that the reception to your writings may be better here - for there is a chance gamers may be much more open minded.

I think I understand you. He obviously didn't. But could you blame him for ignoring the total waste most so-called intellectual circles truely are ?


P.S. : Sorry I didn't respond to your previous answer to me. I may do it. At least if you want so.
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 21:32

The reason I reacted like that is also because there's a history there. He had posted some stupid shit before, and I flat-out told him he was not welcome here anymore, and then he stopped posting for a time. Then he started posting again, WITHOUT asking for my permission, and lo and behold we are led to the same situation again.

In fact he replied to my latest post in this thread with swearing ("arrogant", "asshole", stuff like that), so I just deleted it and banned him to put an end to this. He can now go back to rllmuk or to Stuart Campbell's forum or to some other retarded place like that and be happy, and I will be spared the annoyance of having to deal with him. And we are all happy and everyone wins out in the end.

Isn't the internet just great? Everyone can be happy here.

raphael wrote:I think it's easy to imagine he really doesn't know anything about the phylosophical circles, and so doesn't realize that the reception to your writings may be better here, for there is a chance gamers may be much more open minded.


I see what you are saying, and it is correct up to a point, but the truth is that one's writings will eventually find their intended readership NO MATTER WHERE they start out from. I mean how would it even be possible for me to direct my writings to these so-called "philosophers"? They don't give a fuck about games. No philosophical journal would publish anything about games, and certainly not anything written in my particular style of writing.

The problem with contemporary "philosophers" is that they have lost the plot. They always do. Most of them don't even regard Baudrillard as a philosopher for fuck's sake. Richard Rorty, America's most prominent recent philosopher (actually, "American philosopher" is an oxymoron, but let's leave that for another day), viewed Baudrillard's writings as complete garbage. He didn't understand any of it. How the fuck could he have ever understood mine, which are based on Baudrillard. Hell man, most contemporary "philosophers" don't even understand Nietzsche! They just label him a "fascist" and move on. Of course they don't actually "move on" anywhere, because if you ignore Nietzsche and Baudrillard there's nowhere else to "move on" to. Which brings us to the fact that contemporary philosophies are a bunch of garbage. Either overwrought hollow verbiage or old-woman wisdom.

The future of philosophy is in games. Unfortunately for people like me, that also happens to be where the end of philosophy is. :(
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Unread postby icycalm » 10 Sep 2008 21:35

raphael wrote:P.S. : Sorry I didn't respond to your previous answer to me. I may do it. At least if you want so.


You should respond only when you think that you have something more to say that's worth saying, or when someone directly asks you a question. We don't need spam posts here. Use your head.
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Unread postby raphael » 10 Sep 2008 21:40

Sure.
icycalm wrote:the truth is that one's writings will eventually find their intended readership NO MATTER WHERE they start out from.

I agree.

Aswell as for the rest.
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Unread postby raphael » 10 Sep 2008 22:31

Bradford wrote:Yes, exactly. I think that Raphael may have misunderstood what I was asking. Because I was aware that I couldn't access a great deal of the essay without a lot more time and study, I thought perhaps I could at least gain some insight right now if someone could explain a little of the context in which Baudrillard wrote it, by citing some of the artists or works of art that Baudrillard is criticising.

For example, Baudrillard referenced Warhol's work as an example of art that succeeded in accomplishing ... something (I won't try summarize what it is) - he "is truly null" as opposed to some "other artists." I was just wondering, who are some of those other artists who Baudrillard argues are "confiscating banality, waste and mediocrity as values and ideologies?" The part of the essay dealing with this made some sense to me, but I'd like know who or what are the subjects of his criticism.

Icycalm answered already but maybe a little redundancy might help.

To understand Baudrillard here, it would be usefull to try and understand a little of what heppened in the mind of Andy Wahrol or Marcel Duchamp. Because this is what is important. The value of their work is mainly there. What you must realize is the joy and sense of freedom they may have felt (or produced to their audience, doesn't make much difference here) when they produced their art. Really this is not too hard to understand. Place yourself back in time and realize Marcel Duchamp's Fountain was the final joke of modern art. It was an unexpected joke and it was a mind blowing one. ( Same thing with Wahrol. Just think of it: a painter who didn't even do his paintings himself. Unbelievable ! )

It may be hard to understand today because Duchamp's joke isn't so funny anymore. The art here was to brake something in the vision of art people had. By doing so he was changing the perception of the world his viewers had. In a little way he was changing the world. You may have a hard time realizing this if you never tried to create anything: making something different is close to impossible. Contrarily to what our ego makes us think, what our mind produces is always a rehash of what we already know. To make this rehash change the state of reality is a huge feat. It takes desire, talent, opportunity, necessity or luck or all this together if not more. These guys did it. You may have to try to realize how huge it is.

Anybody can do the Fountain again. You realize it's easy don't you ? But if I do the exact same thing as he did it will have absolutely no value. If you understand it takes neither intellectual effort nor skill to do it again. Then you understand all there is to.

It's just like punk rock. It's just like french cinema's Nouvelle Vague. Its value is mainly in the instant, it doesn't last, it can't be replicated. Just think of adolescent crisis and you have the picture.

The problem of modern art is you can't go further than Duchamp without getting out of the realm of art galleries and into the realm of public trouble, in prison, asylum or morgue (sadly enough we have exemples for all of this).

At least you still can do beautiful things. But this wont take you to art galleries.

...
Ok this all is over-simplified. But read again what Baudrillard and Icycalm wrote, it may seem easier this time.
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Unread postby JoshF » 11 Sep 2008 01:39

Does "Fountain" really have value? I think its value is that its value is so empty that bohemian hipsters get to play madlibs with the value depending on whatever sounds sentimentally pleasing to them.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 Sep 2008 16:33

Yes, that is its value. You are saying the same thing in different words. The Fountain signaled the end of art, meaning that now "bohemian hipsters get to play madlibs with the value depending on whatever sounds sentimentally pleasing to them".



Moving on, I just posted that second essay I was talking about:

http://insomnia.ac/essays/the_piracy_of_art/

Sylvère Lotringer was a life-long Baudrillard collaborator and in this essay gives context to "The Conspiracy of Art", a lot of which I keep finding hilarious regardless of how many times I read it. It's really great stuff.

Note, however, that Lotringer is not a real philosopher. He doesn't really understand some of the things Baudrillard is saying -- and yet, in his capacity as a professor of philosophy and as a "cultural commentator" or whatever, feels obligated to comment on. The result is quite a few meaningless sentences thrown in there for pure effect, and several silly and/or stupid and/or ridiculous claims. There's no point here in dissecting his essay, since most of the bogus claims concern tangential issues not directly related to what Baudrillard is saying here; I am merely posting it to help people understand the first one, and in that respect it does an excellent job. I am only providing a warning so that no one ends up banging his head against a wall trying to understand EVERYTHING that Lotringer is saying (because that would be quite feasible in fact, since he is saying much simpler things than Baudrillard).

Here are two flagrant examples of what I am talking about:

Gilles Deleuze once superbly said that he wanted to exit philosophy to engage art, literature, film, but as a philosopher. Unlike him, Baudrillard never had to make a huge effort to get out of philosophy. He never belonged there in the first place, or anywhere for that matter.


This is all baloney. Deleuze could never exit philosophy because he never entered it in the first place (I've had three of his major works sitting on my desk for months -- he's so boring and full of shit I never managed to read more than half a page here or there). And Baudrillard lived and breathed philosophy his whole life; to say that he "never really belonged there in the first place" is ludicrous. Except if he means among the circle of Parisian pseudo-philosophers who flourished in the mid- to late-20th century, in which case he's damn right. But that's clearly NOT what he means, otherwise he wouldn't have praised Deleuze's ridiculous act of posturing as "superb". As if it is possible to enagage art, literature and film as something OTHER than a philosopher! Or games for that matter! Retardation, you see, is not only endemic in gaming journalism. It is EVERYWHERE.

And here's some more baloney:

Art doesn't come from a natural impulse, but from calculated artifice (at the dawn of modernism, Baudelaire already figured this out). So it is always possible to question its status, and even its existence.


Yes moron but "calculated artifice" IS a natural impulse! As for the second sentence, I won't dignify it with a response. He is merely attempting to turn into a natural law a discovery someone else made for a specific period of time.

So, like I said, Lotringer should not be taken seriously in serious matters -- just for the context he provides for Baudrillard's essay.
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Unread postby icycalm » 20 Dec 2008 03:40

"Artist's shit" (Italian: "Merda d'artista") is a work of art by the Italian artist Piero Manzoni that was influenced by Marcel Duchamp's "Readymades".

In May 1961, Manzoni collected his own feces in 90 numbered cans, which contain 30 grams of feces each. He labelled them as "100% pure artist's shit" in Italian, English, French and German, and sold them for the price of their weight in gold. On May 23, 2007, an exemplar was sold for EUR124,000 at Sotheby's[1], and in October 2008, tin 083 was offered for sale at Sotheby's with an estimate of GBP50-70,000.[2].

Like Duchamp's "Readymades", "Artist's shit" questions the meaning of art as both cultural and consumer objects by inviting the viewer to confront a system that venerates cans of shit as works of art.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit
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Unread postby Bradford » 20 Dec 2008 16:06

Talk about a guy who could sell ice to an eskimo...
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Unread postby icycalm » 24 Feb 2009 23:35

I was just reading another essay of Baudrillard's on art, which includes this lollerific passage:

The idea of art has become rarefied and minimal, leading ultimately to conceptual art, where it ends in the non-exhibition of non-works in non-galleries -- the apotheosis of art as a non-event. As a corollary, the consumer circulates in all this in order to experience his non-enjoyment of the works.


As well as the most insightful comment on contemporary art I have yet read:

It is absurd, then, to say that contemporary art is worthless and that there's no point to it, since that is its vital function: to illustrate our uselessness and absurdity.


Another favorite:

This is why, where art is concerned, the most interesting thing would be to infiltrate the spongiform encephalon of the modern spectator. For this is where the mystery lies today: in the brain of the receiver, at the nerve center of this servility before "works of art". What is the secret of it?


He is basically calling everyone retarded, and not at all in a subtle way, but without resorting to out and out vulgarities, which is part of the reason the so-called intellectuals find it hard to dismiss him outright. They do dismiss him, of course, after they have read him and figured out that he is calling them retarded, but at least in this way he manages to get a hearing. It's an interesting approach. Not related in any way to my idiosyncrasy -- I have no patience at all for subtlety in my attacks -- but interesting nonetheless.

I'll post the entire essay as soon as I get a chance.
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Unread postby zinger » 26 Apr 2009 12:19

I need some help here.

As I understand it, the critique is above all directed to the ironic works that deal with questioning of people's conception of art alone. But Baudrillard is also speaking of installations and performances in general, with contempt. Do you know if he regarded these forms, without exceptions, as more artificial, affected or in any other way less effective? And maybe that their ineffectiveness (in conveying a "message" and maybe also aesthetic qualities) conceal the works' lack of content?

Every now and then though, I come across works of this kind with little or no aesthetic value, that I still feel are honest and actually have something to say. They've invoked feelings and inspired new thoughts. Does Baudrillard's critique stem from their poorness compared to his writing? Should people rather learn from experiences outside of the gallery (not constructed "happenings", "performances", "installations" etc.) and deal with philosophy whenever they feel the urge to express these things?
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Apr 2009 14:34

zinger wrote:As I understand it, the critique is above all directed to the ironic works that deal with questioning of people's conception of art alone.


No. Those works are just the most useless of the lot. But the rest are still useless. Maybe not so flagrantly useless, maybe not so annoyingly useless, but at the very least trivial and banal.

But you have to understand something here. When Baudrillard says contemporary art is banal, he means to someone like Baudrillard. To a child or to an uneducated person of course things may be different.

And note that the critique is limited to contemporary art. Art before Duchamp still had meaning, if very little. And the art of the ancients was overflowing with it.

zinger wrote:But Baudrillard is also speaking of installations and performances in general, with contempt. Do you know if he regarded these forms, without exceptions, as more artificial, affected or in any other way less effective?


No, not less effective. From what I have read, he did not distinguish between these forms and more traditional ones. He viewed all of them as equally worthless.

zinger wrote:And maybe that their ineffectiveness (in conveying a "message" and maybe also aesthetic qualities) conceal the works' lack of content?


Yes, that's it, of course.

But you are perhaps still trapped in the "messages" stupidity. It's not the artwork that's supposed to contain the real message, you see -- it's the original act from which the artist was inspired. The original act which the artist is merely imitating, in order to communicate it to more people. The idea that the message originates in the artist is a very stupid one. NOTHING originates in the artist -- messages originate in life, from heroes and philosophers (and genuine philosophers are also heroes, but simply more intelligent, more self-aware than regular heroes -- you could say that philosophers are artist-heroes: heroes who are also artists of their own acts). But the artist cannot devise a message himself, on his own, through his own experiences, because an artist's experiences are limited and banal, since artists are not heroes. Everything an artist has to say must come from someone else, someone far greater than himself, because whatever comes directly from the artist will be trivial and banal, reflecting his condition. The only reason common people think that the message originates in the artist is because the artist is the one who brings them the message -- but you have to be really stupid to assume that, just because someone brought you milk, he is also the cow that made it. Nietzsche has explained this:

Nietzsche wrote:The good and the beautiful.-- Artists continually glorify -- they do nothing else -- all those states and things that are reputed to give man the opportunity to feel good for once, or great, or intoxicated, or cheerful, or well and wise. These select things and states, whose value for human happiness is considered safe and assured, are the artists' objects. Artists always lie in wait to discover such objects and draw them into the realm of art. What I mean is that they are not themselves the appraisers of happiness; rather they try to get close to those who make the appraisals, with the utmost curiosity and the urge to utilize these appraisals immediately. Since they have, in addition to this impatience, also the big lungs of heralds and the feet of runners, they are also among the first to glorify the new good; and they therefore appear to be the first to call it good, to appraise it as good. But this is, as I have said, an error: they are merely quicker and louder than the real appraisers. -- But who are the real appraisers? -- The rich and the idle.

The Gay Science, 85


So without original acts there can be no art -- which is why Baudrillard says that the function of contemporary art is to "illustrate our uselessness and absurdity". Art is degenerate because we have degenerated, and when our artists attempt to find heroes among us, in order to imitate their acts in art, they find no one, or else they find nobodies whose trivial acts they attempt to elevate to art, producing comedy as a result (comedy to people like Baudrillard, who understand what's going on, of course, not to everyone).

So the ancients still had an Alexander or a Ceasar to glorify -- but who do we have? Barrack Obama? The soldiers of a superpower who spend their time invading helpless nations? Michelangelo immortalized David, who, we must remember, defeated Goliath -- are contemporary artists supposed to immortalize a Goliath who goes around smashing little Davids?

Added to the above, with the death of the religions artists do not even have fantastical heroes to depict any more. We have fantasy, but no one believes in that -- the thing that made the art of the religions valuable was that people believed in those fantastical heroes -- and could therefore be inspired by them. But the art that stems from pure fantasy is of a cheaper, a much less valuable sort. It's not even real art any more, but mere escapism.

If there are any heroes left in this world of ours it has to be the terrorists and the criminals -- but artists are too to chained to the prevailing herd-morality, and too dumb to realize (on their own, without the help of the philosophers) that those are the only heroes left. So with no heroes around to provide them with subject matter, what can the artists do? The only thing they can do is start throwing buckets of paint onto blank canvases, or drawing random lines, etc. -- and when asked about the meaning of these works mutter something about "hidden messages" -- and the con-artist is born. Hence comedy arises -- to those who are smart enough to see it, of course.

zinger wrote:Every now and then though, I come across works of this kind with little or no aesthetic value, that I still feel are honest and actually have something to say.


YOU may feel that they have something to say, but not Baudrillard. That's because Baudrillard knew everything and you know nothing. Once you know everything, the "messages" of uneducated people simply become trivial, banal, stupid, worthy of nothing but contempt. Whether they are honest or not is not important. A stupid person may be honest -- but does that make his stupidities any more interesting and worthwhile? An interesting lie will always be more worthwhile than an honest stupidity.

zinger wrote:They've invoked feelings and inspired new thoughts.


Even a dead dog in the street can "invoke feelings". My ass can invoke feelings too, when I have had a particularly big meal. That doesn't mean that a dead dog in the street or a piece of shit are works of art, or worthy of any special kind of consideration.

As for the "inspired new thoughts" part -- maybe to children or the uneducated, but not to people like Baudrillard.

zinger wrote:Does Baudrillard's critique stem from their poorness compared to his writing?


You could say that. I mean, his writing will always have more value, even compared to the art of the past (which was real art and had real meaning and real value). Baudrillard's work, after all, is genuine art. But that doesn't diminish the value of the art of the past, and Baudrillard never made fun of the artworks or the artists of the past.

Image

This will always be art, and no matter how much philosophy you read, no matter how many things you come to understand, you will always come back to it with awe and respect -- real awe and real respect, not the feigned kind.

zinger wrote:Should people rather learn from experiences outside of the gallery (not constructed "happenings", "performances", "installations" etc.) and deal with philosophy whenever they feel the urge to express these things?


There is nothing to express any more. We are way past that point. The only thing left to do is live, but that is becoming harder and harder every day. One day soon it will be impossible. At that point, well... something radical will have to happen.
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Apr 2009 14:52

icycalm wrote:Added to the above, with the death of the religions artists do not even have fantastical heroes to depict any more. We have fantasy, but no one believes in that -- the thing that made the art of the religions valuable was that people believed in those fantastical heroes -- and could therefore be inspired by them. But the art that stems from pure fantasy is of a cheaper, a much less valuable sort. It's not even real art any more, but mere escapism.


Note also that, if escapism is a cheaper form of art, then simulation, which is merely ESCAPISM IN ITS MOST EXTREME, MOST PURE FORM -- is no longer art at all. As Baudrillard says, simulation is a CHALLENGE to art.

Now perhaps people can see how absurd it is to call videogames art. Videogames are, if anything, the final nail in art's coffin.
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Unread postby JoshF » 26 Apr 2009 15:55

The Romans were Davids?
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Unread postby icycalm » 26 Apr 2009 16:06

The Romans started out from a small part of Italy and conquered the entire (then) known world -- from Britain to Egypt and from Spain to Asia Minor. The Greeks did likewise. Ceasar and Alexander were simply two of their greatest heroes.

The only genuine American heroes, in contrast, were the pioneers and those who fought the British. And still, the kind of warfare which resulted from these struggles (including against the helpless native Americans) was far less interesting than the campaigns of the Greeks or the Romans.

The proof: compare the art created in the classical antiquity of Greece and Rome, to that created in America during its heroic phase. There is simply no comparison, which means that there must have been no comparison between the events that inspired this art.

Then compare all of THAT art, to the art inspired by, say, the two Gulf "Wars".

lol, etc.
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