[AC] [360] [PS3] [PC] [3DS] [MOB] Street Fighter IV

[lock]

Hahaha, I'm no so good. I was just joking around. But I have no problem to meet AlphaONE (or other people) in Kyoto soon and have some fun.

I used to think I'm good before, but I met too many people better than me in Japan so I don't think so anymore. Plus, I have not played seriously for a long time. My level is quite high to have some fun with, though.

Maybe we could have some plays online...

[AlphaONE]

I used to think I was good at MVC2 until
I got OWNED by Duck.
After that I got my sprits broken :(

[lock]

Well,
I'm in Kyoto now and I have to say that I had been in Namco Tower, Hero Town in Kitaooji and the arcade center that is in Teramachi and I have seen SFIII 3th strike in ALL those places, so in which part of Kyoto did you say you looked for? :)

[CosMind]

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=saueki&search_query=iv

A good number of views from the recent loc. Enjoy.

[Mr.Stevenson]

So another new character has been revealed -- Rufus. Rufus's character design is fairly interesting, and one that will probably grab people's attention, just like the other new characters. Now we will wait and see if the final version of the game is more than just interesting.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrSJizZtIZA

[Molloy]

I can't wait to play this and SF2HDR. I'm not a huge VS Fighter fan but SFII still has a very powerful sway over me. There aren't too many complicated combos or inputs, which tended to put me off later games in the genre.

[catalyst_nc]

We've posted a new Street Fighter IV Moves List and Strategy Guide:

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/ju ... -and-tips/

It was released in Japanese arcades recently, and there will be some units floating around in America soon. Thought it would be cool to spread the word about the current moves list before people start playing the game, so they know what to expect.

If you have any feedback on this, please just leave a reply in this thread.

[Macaw]

Cool strat guide.

Units should start showing up here in Australia soon. Need a new fighter to be competitive with; Tekken 6 is getting a bit boring.

[Jedah]

As with every fighter without fireballs... :P

This game shaped up way better than first impressions. Weird character expressions are gone, and it shows extreme fluidity during combat. Anyone knows where can I find any videos of good players? This game can't be done justice by amateurs playing during events. I'm buying a new PC & Xbox 360 this autumn and I can't wait for the home release.

[Molloy]

It's a shame this is going to get such a limited arcade release. Capcom are being greedy. You need two cabinets for VS play and they're $5,000 each, probably more in Europe!

They'll probably be flogging a Double Impact/Turbo style upgrade in six months' time at a premium price too. The version that's shipping now doesn't even have as many characters as the console version.

[Jedah]

I'm not sure if they can get away with Super Street Fighter IV: The Soon to be Upgraded Edition logic any more. The game has to be a vast success for them to be able to produce upgrade after upgrade. There will surely be another release, as with most every at-least-fairly-successful Japanese 2D fighter, but I'm not expecting it to be as big as the second one was back in early nineties.

[icycalm]

Guys, VF5 has been upgraded at least four times already. Perhaps more. The question here is whether the SFIV upgrades will be provided to arcade operators for free or not. Either way it's not really our concern. If the game is good let them upgrade it a billion times. If it's not, who cares?

[Molloy]

You only need one cabinet to have VS play on VF5. For SFIV it looks like the operator will have to buy two. Then he has to pay again twice if they bring out a (paid) upgrade.

The only reason I'm concerned is that the more expensive it is the less likely I will be to ever get to play it in the arcade. A lot of the new 2-player racing cabinets have been released for $6,000 recently. Why would they buy a 2D fighter for $10,000? The Stinger Report on http://arcadeheroes.com/ have been complaining about the US and EU divisions of Capcom purposely fucking up the arcade distribution/pricing because they only want to deal with the console side of things. I'll provide a link when I get home from work.

Edit: http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/17/sfiv ... binets-e3/

[JoshF]

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=5876

Heres where the producer admits to designing the game for scrubs and profitability through mainstream pandering at the expense of quality.

Why did you make the decision to remove parrying for Street Fighter IV?
I didn't want to create an entertainment videogame as such. I wanted Street Fighter IV to be a tool for the people to use and enjoy themselves.

I often use the analogy of a chess game. Chess can be played by the American or Russian champion, if you like. We can see them playing chess on live TV and so on. The parrying system is that level. It's quite hard for the vast majority to master but chess can be played by grandpa and grand kids on a Sunday afternoon.

I want Street Fighter IV to be a tool for everyone to enjoy. Therefore I deliberately didn't include the parrying system. But you know we carried on with the focus attack and such. Basically we used the rule book from Street Fighter II because that was the most popular.

Some critics have said the game is too similar to Street Fighter II. That is doesn't move the series forward. What do you say to those criticisms?
Well, you know obviously there are subtle differences, wider screens and speed. But ultimately we wanted to create a sequel to Street Fighter II, so if someone says this looks just like Street Fighter II with glorified graphics, then that's music to our ears!

There is one other journalist in Asia, he is from Hong Kong. He said the same thing. He was poker faced. I wasn't sure if he was sarcastic or he meant to be positive but when I said that's the word I wanted to hear, he just shut up. So he was probably being sarcastic.

When you compare the two side by side, Street Fighter II and Street Fighter IV, obviously there are lots of differences. However the team focused on creating a sequel to Street Fighter II. So if people play it and then have the control feel of Street Fighter II, that's what we were aiming for.

Q: ARE WE NOT MEN?

[icycalm]

These are the Rumble Fish people, right? Dimps?

Has anyone played those games? I seem to remember playing one or two credits of 2 in the arcades. I like the style/graphics/character designs, etc., but I've no idea if the games were any good.

[Molloy]

Most people weren't able to get their head around the parrying so Capcom really had to remove it. In fairness, I don't know if it was very meaningful complexity anyway. Having to learn off big strings of defence inputs isn't what the game should necessarily be about.

To quote Sirlin (balance designer on SF2 HD Remix).

"Making various special moves a bit easier to perform puts more emphasis on strategy and reading the mind of your opponent."

[icycalm]

From first to last word, your post doesn't make sense:

Most people weren't able to get their head around the parrying so Capcom really had to remove it.

Most people can't get their head around ANYthing in complicated videogames. I guess we have to "remove" all of them too. In fact we have been successfully "removing" them from the market for the last 15 years at least, so hooray for us!

In fairness, I don't know if it was very meaningful complexity anyway.

Parrying? Not meaningful complexity? I am not sure if I should LOL or ban you.

Having to learn off big strings of defence inputs isn't what the game should necessarily be about.

SFIII is just ONE game. No one is saying that all fighters ever should have parrying. And indeed they don't.

To quote Sirlin (balance designer on SF2 HD Remix).

"Making various special moves a bit easier to perform puts more emphasis on strategy and reading the mind of your opponent."

This quote would have been appropriate if parrying was still in the game but made "easier to perform". As things stand, however, it's irrelevant.

...

Back on sane-land, the question is not why they "removed" parrying -- indeed they did not remove anything: SFIV is a new game. The question is what did they "replace" it with, if anything.

I know fuck-all about this game, so if anyone knows how the system works perhaps you can enlighten me.

[JoshF]

SIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLINSIRLIN

Jesus fuck is this getting old.

To quote Sirlin (balance designer on SF2 HD Remix).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCseWmfIjzU

Good thing he's smart enough to use SRK as playtesters to fix shit like this. Hope they're paid for it too.

"Making various special moves a bit easier to perform puts more emphasis on strategy and reading the mind of your opponent."

Part of what makes fighting games so awesome and complex is you have to not only be Fischer on the screen but also Rachmaninoff on the controller. Sounds like Sirlin is willing to deny half of this equation for the sake of scrub catering, but we'll have to wait to see exactly how this idea will appear in the game.

In fairness, I don't know if it was very meaningful complexity anyway.

A new layer of strategy to blocking is meaningful. Risking damage from mistiming versus getting a slight advantage on your opponent, or playing it safe with a defensive block and taking some chip damage.

Honestly, I wouldn't ask Sirlin for an opinion about a fighting game released after 1993, like the guy who writes these Domination articles and thinks a particular maneuver in SFIII that somewhat levels the playing field against fireball hegemony (balance) is bad design, but he doesn't have a problem using Mike Bison's vertical jumping foward+fierce in his IIX matches.

[adrenalinq]

Making various special moves a bit easier to perform puts more emphasis on strategy and reading the mind of your opponent

It sounds to me like: "We are making the game easier and more accessible". Cant see how making move execution easier can make game deeper... What a bullshit

[Molloy]

Sorry I don't tend to express my opinion very well. The point I'm trying to make is having to be "Rachmaninoff" on the controller isn't my favourite part of Vs. fighting games much in the same way I don't like RTS games like Star Craft that require insane actions per minute. The more complex you make physically playing the game the less concentration people have to dedicate to what's going on in the game.

They've taken out the parrying and "replaced" it with another defence system called the Saving System or Focus Attack. There's a section on the wikipedia entry explaining how it works. It seems to be alot easier to execute than the old defence system. Now, perhaps this is oversimplification. I'd be the first to say my taste in fighters is probably old fashioned.

Producer Yoshinori Ono has stated that he wanted to keep the game closer to Street Fighter II than its sequels, and as such the "parry system" from Street Fighter III has been dropped. A new system called "Focus Attacks" ("Saving Attack" for the Japanese version) has been introduced, as well as Ultra moves.

The game has a very similar feel to Super Street Fighter II Turbo, but also has several features from Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. Pressing both light attack buttons is still for throwing, and both heavy attack buttons are for the personal action or taunts. Both medium attack buttons are for the saving strike. Dashes and quick standing are also in the game. At the moment, C.Viper is the only character who can perform a high jump.

Saving system (Focus attacks)

The system that has been referred to as "Saving" for the time being, but will be renamed "Focus" for North America and Europe, is a new system that is being introduced in Street Fighter IV. The saving attack is a move that allows the player to absorb an attack and launch a counter attack, and it is performed by pressing the medium punch and kick buttons simultaneously. There are two phases to the attack. In the first phase, the player will shift into a new stance, at which point he is able to absorb one attack from the opponent. The second phase is the counter attack. The longer the player holds down the medium punch and kick buttons the more powerful the attack will be. If the buttons are held for long enough the attack will cause the opponent to crumple slowly to the ground, allowing the player to follow up with a free hit. If the buttons are held for longer still the saving attack will become unblockable. Attacks that were absorbed during the first phase of the saving attack still cause damage to the player; however, life lost from the opponent's attack will be gained back afterward. In addition, during the first phase of the saving attack the player may perform a dash either forward or backward to cancel the saving attack. Finally, at the cost of half the super meter, many special moves can be canceled into a saving attack. By executing a saving attack during the special move, the animation of the move will be cut short and go instantly into the saving attack animation. This allows players with precise timing to cancel special moves into saving attacks, and in turn cancel saving attacks into the forward dash, resulting in new combo possibilities. If a special move is blocked by the opponent, the new system allows players to cancel the blocked move with a saving attack, and then cancel the saving attack by dashing backward safely away from the opponent.

Ono has stated that this system was incorporated in order to shift the emphasis away from combos and toward a more realistic system he has compared to boxing, in which "the skill is in reading your opponent's move before he starts moving ... We haven't forgotten about combos and linked moves, but saving makes it so that you have to read your opponent." The system aims to make ground attacks as viable a way of approaching opponents as jumping was in previous games. The saving system is a core part of Street Fighter IV's gameplay.

Super Combos and Ultra Combos

Super attacks, officially dubbed "Super Combos", return in Street Fighter IV. Similar to Super Street Fighter II Turbo, each character has one set super move.

In addition to Super Combos, the game also features Ultra Combos. Ultra Combos are performed similarly to the character's Super Combo but are executed with three attack buttons (much like the EX Special system which uses two attack buttons). Ultra Combos are long and cinematic moves featuring a lengthy combination of punches, kicks and other moves. Just as there is a Super Combo meter, there is also an Ultra Combo meter, but whereas the Super Combo meter fills as the player hits an opponent, the Ultra Combo meter fills when one takes damage from the opponent. Along with the Super Combo, Ultra Combos are one of the only times the camera breaks from its normal fixed position to show a more dynamic, cinematic view of the gameplay.

[icycalm]

Wow, that article says 360, PS3 and PC ports have been confirmed. I am way behind on news about this game; I had no idea they'd already talked about ports.

Making various special moves a bit easier to perform puts more emphasis on strategy and reading the mind of your opponent

It sounds to me like: "We are making the game easier and more accessible". Cant see how making move execution easier can make game deeper... What a bullshit

It's not really possible to make a fighting game more accessible than it already is. You press start, pick your character, and hit the buttons to attack your opponents with punches and kicks. How could this experience possibly be made any more accessible?

The existence of parrying or Roman cancelling or burst modes in no way makes a fighter less accessible. It makes HIGH-LEVEL PLAY less accessible -- or, to be more precise, it increases the maximum distance between worst and best possible players -- but for those who have no desire to compete this extra depth might as well not exist.

And indeed it doesn't, as evidenced by pretty much all fighting game reviews ever, bar the ones on this website.

[Jedah]

Guys, let's not mourn over the death of parries. The fact is that this game is bringing back interest to the fighting genre. Soulcalibur 4 was released some days ago and I think there was no discussion on this forum at all about it. BUT we are arguing about SF IV. That's the first Capcom bet that's won. The second one will be if all home versions will provide a better experience than the arcade. Third and most difficult one will be the online play.
As for the fighting system itself, we simply can't argue about its simplicity or scrub friendly nature till we play it. Has anyone in this forum played the game? Is it possible for us to criticize a fighting game released exclusively in Japanese arcades, about a month ago?

[icycalm]

Guys, let's not mourn over the death of parries.

We are not mourning over the death of parries. We are mourning over the rise of a game design philosophy which wants to dumb down games so that your grandma will like them.

The fact is that this game is bringing back interest to the fighting genre.

By the kind of people who will buy the port, clear the story mode with every character to unlock shit, and never touch it again, as well as proceed to complain about every upgrade because "it's just a worthless money-making scheme!"

We don't need these people. The fighting game community has been doing fine all these years without them. There's like a billion fighting games released or due to be released in Japan in 2008, and SFIV sure as hell is not anywhere near the most important ones. The only impact these people can make in the scene is to tempt developers to dumb down their games for them.

BUT we are arguing about SF IV.

Again, like I said, we are arguing about the philosophy that went into its design. Compared to THAT argument, an argument about SFIV proper would be insignificant.

The second one will be if all home versions will provide a better experience than the arcade.

I guess you've never been in a proper arcade. Because if you had you'd realize that it is technically impossible to get a better experience of an arcade game at home than in an arcade -- especially when it comes to versus games, whose point is competition.

As for the fighting system itself, we simply can't argue about its simplicity or scrub friendly nature till we play it.

I don't see why not. We seem to be doing fine so far.

Has anyone in this forum played the game? Is it possible for us to criticize a fighting game released exclusively in Japanese arcades, about a month ago?

Again, see above. Personally, I can provide more worthwhile criticism on a game by a single screenshot than most people can after playing a game for a month.

[Jedah]

We define/assume a different thing about a home arcade port. For you a home port is actually nowhere near the arcade version due to the fact that you are playing at home, its lacking the arcade site and competition. To me a better-than-arcade-home port is to provide the same or better audiovisual quality, plus extra content. I believe that a powerful PC can provide that, with consoles only lacking in architecture differences to the coin-op. I will not be surprised though if Capcom will totally ruin the PC version :P.

It is indeed a sad fact that never in my life have I visited a proper arcade, like the ones you visited in Japan. Don't I (among many others) deserve the right to play the game in the comfort of my place and feel happy if the program perfectly resembles the arcade one?

Due to the lack of proper arcades (excepting Japan), the home port and online competition will be probably my only chance to experience the best SFIV has to offer. Sad but true. I believe that we need to consider this situation in our criticism about the game.

Finally my information so far is that no watered down feature will be present in SFIV. The lack of parries does not mean that the game will be enjoyable by non/mini/artfag gamers. What the producers refer as more accessible is a foggy area. Accessible to whom? In what features and how? If this game plays like good old ST, then it retains the grab quick, master in eternity ethos.

I trust the guys at Capcom Japan, Sirlin's game is a different approach. Sirlin's team is tweaking the game parameters (move frames, attack & defense bounding boxes etc.) till play testing provides a more balanced game. They actually tweak the Dreamcast version of the game. Hope they succeed but I'm not holding my breath. On the other hand SFIV is a new game, that retains the SFII feel of movement, while targeting to be newbie friendly. Let's not kick others from the experience. We can always kick their butts online:).

That's my point of view right now and honestly I will be the first to admit my mistake if things go awfully wrong with the game...

[icycalm]

See, in one post you say one thing, then I reply to you, and then you reply to my reply by completely changing the subject.

Look, this is what you said:

The second one will be if all home versions will provide a better experience than the arcade.

I replied to this by giving you to understand that the EXPERIENCE of an arcade game -- especially of a versus one -- will always be inferior at home no matter what. Even if the port is PRETTIER or whatever, the EXPERIENCE of playing it at home will be worse.

And then you give me all this stuff, which has nothing to do with your original post or with my reply:

We define/assume a different thing about a home arcade port. For you a home port is actually nowhere near the arcade version due to the fact that you are playing at home, its lacking the arcade site and competition. To me a better-than-arcade-home port is to provide the same or better audiovisual quality, plus extra content.

It is indeed a sad fact that never in my life have I visited a proper arcade, like the ones you visited in Japan. Don't I (among many others) deserve the right to play the game in the comfort of my place and feel happy if the program perfectly resembles the arcade one?

Where did you see me "define/assume a different thing about a home arcade port"? These are merely words you are putting in my mouth. And when you say that "To me a better-than-arcade-home port is to provide the same or better audiovisual quality, plus extra content", you are simply posting truisms as if they are something new. I mean of course this is how things are. What -- are we six years old on these boards? Did we get into games yesterday?

As for the second paragraph -- if you "deserve the right, etc." -- let's not get into this subject. If I start on what a "right" is and who "deserves" it we are going to get in very, very deep waters, and perhaps drown in them.

Due to the lack of proper arcades (excepting Japan), the home port and online competition will be probably my only chance to experience the best SFIV has to offer. Sad but true. I believe that we need to consider this situation in our criticism about the game.

I don't see why. In fact, I believe the exact opposite, and have explained the reasons in detail here:

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/ports_and_compilations/

On the other hand SFIV is a new game, that retains the SFII feel of movement, while targeting to be newbie friendly. Let's not kick others from the experience. We can always kick their butts online:).

We are not "kicking others from the experience". Even if we wanted to, how could we accomplish it? This is uncharacteristic of you, but in this thread you seem to be acting like the rest of the internet, which finds it impossible to realize that certain aspects of a game CAN and SHOULD be criticized to death irrespective of one's opinion on OTHER aspects of the game or of the game as a whole. Let's try to grow up, eh?