Moderator: JC Denton
by c001357 » 25 Nov 2008 12:00
by Jedah » 25 Nov 2008 14:56
by icycalm » 25 Nov 2008 17:29
c001357 wrote:He is probably the go to guy for game design and related topics, with such works as "Playing To Win".
c001357 wrote:He is probably the go to guy for game design and related topics
by icycalm » 25 Nov 2008 19:02
I have degrees in math and business from MIT, but I've continued studying many fields since then, especially writing, psychology, physics, and politics (with special interest in free speech and civil rights).
Disturbingly, I'm more academic than many people who are called "game academics."
What I should be working on:
* A single-player story based game that speaks to ethics in non-pathetic, non-KOTOR-like way
Recently shipped:
* Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix (XBLA/PSN)
* Kongai Virtual Card Game, Kongregate.com (web)
* Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix (XBLA/PSN)
* SEGA Genesis Collection (PS2/Xbox)
* Capcom Classics Collection 2 (PS2/Xbox)
* Capcom Classics Collection: Remixed (PSP)
* Capcom Classics Colleciton (PS2/Xbox)
I try my best to make quality products, which has earned me a reputation as a troublemaker. For some reason, it's a constant battle against mediocrity because apparently mediocrity sells. It doesn't last though, or build long-term value, so it's not worth getting out of bed for.
I've learned that hardly any developers really understand the market of competitive games, so I guess that makes me valuable.
I also like pointless, wacky Nintendo DS/Wii games as much as the next guy, and I understand and applaud Nintendo's strategy.
by RolandDeschain » 25 Nov 2008 19:15
by icycalm » 25 Nov 2008 19:23
RolandDeschain wrote:While part of your criticism above is valid icy, you're selling his efforts as a designer horribly short. Both Puzzle Fighter and Super Turbo are/should be vastly more exciting and well-balanced competitive games thanks to his efforts.
Tinkering with near-perfection (in both games) and coming out with an even more amazing product deserves an awful lot of praise.
RolandDeschain wrote:Tinkering with near-perfection (in both games) and coming out with an even more amazing product deserves an awful lot of praise.
RolandDeschain wrote:Check out his articles on balancing;
http://www.sirlin.net/sf (Akuma article hidden above Honda and Blanka portraits)
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancin ... ghter.html
by RolandDeschain » 25 Nov 2008 19:33
icycalm wrote:In the first paragraph you are acknowledging that we so far have no idea if Sirlin's efforts helped the games or not, and to what extent.
icycalm wrote:I don't agree with this statement, even if it were true. Tinkering with "near-perfection" is still tinkering. Since when does "tinkering" of any kind deserve an awful lot of praise?
icycalm wrote:
I don't find the subject very exciting, so I'll pass.
by Recap » 25 Nov 2008 21:43
When one considerably improves upon two classic titles, it deserves a lot of praise, yes.
by icycalm » 25 Nov 2008 21:51
icycalm wrote:In the first paragraph you are acknowledging that we so far have no idea if Sirlin's efforts helped the games or not, and to what extent.Of course we do! Read the two links I gave you. They both chronicle, in MINUTE DETAIL, everything he has done for both games.
RolandDeschain wrote:I know for a fact that they've improved Puzzle Fighter Remix because I've played it, and there is actual variety in serious match-ups and attack patterns now, as opposed to it being Ken vs. Ken all the time.
RolandDeschain wrote:I can't say to what extent they've improved HD Remix, (although I will by the end of the week) but the actual list of changes is RIGHT THERE.
icycalm wrote:I don't agree with this statement, even if it were true. Tinkering with "near-perfection" is still tinkering. Since when does "tinkering" of any kind deserve an awful lot of praise?RolandDeschain wrote:When one considerably improves upon two classic titles, it deserves a lot of praise, yes.
RolandDeschain wrote:What? You mentioned not knowing his exact contributions, and so I gave you two links with information on the subject. Now you're saying you'll "pass".
RolandDeschain wrote:So were you interested in reading these changes beforehand or not?
by icycalm » 25 Nov 2008 23:17
So do all the lessons of winning at games apply to real life? No, they do not.
Competitive games are a means of expression as well.
The brilliant, half-finished book is of little value compared to the published one.
So the application of Playing to Win to real life is not a simple, direct relationship. It may require some wisdom on your part to know which aspects of games are diametrically opposed to real life, and which ones are not.
by Kuzdu » 26 Nov 2008 00:06
by Jedah » 26 Nov 2008 10:14
by Macaw » 27 Nov 2008 19:28
icycalm wrote:I've learned that hardly any developers really understand the market of competitive games, so I guess that makes me valuable.
Yeah, I hear Epic, Valve, Blizzard, Arcsys, SNK, Examu, G.rev and dozens of other companies specializing in competitive games knocking on your door, right this moment, so that you can repackage their old games as badly emulated compilations, or find people to update their graphics while you mess around with "balance" and then proclaim that YOU in fact designed the final game. lol, etc.
by icycalm » 27 Nov 2008 21:49
Macaw wrote:I'm an experienced ST player, and am quite familiar with the American fighting game scene. Sirlin is an accomplished tourny player, and the fact he is working on / worked on HD Remix doesn't bother me at all. I'd rather have a top player doing all the balance stuff than some random dude
Macaw wrote:and I find his balancing articles very interesting.
Macaw wrote:And its not like he's proclaiming he's the best designer around, or that the changes he is making to HD Remix are going to make the game turn out superior than the original.
Macaw wrote:Also, the very existence of HD Remix is something I don't mind. The Japanese are going to be playing ST on tournament level regardless of anything, so they don't care what Capcom America puts out, and neither do I.
Macaw wrote:The fact however that a top player is in charge of doing all the tinkering (with the help of other American top players) at least puts credibility behind it, so it definitely isn't just shovelware that has no purpose.
Macaw wrote:I'm also sure the original developers of SF2 wouldn't be offended by others taking their game and tinkering with it over a decade later, but rather they would feel proud their game was so influential and has had such long legs.
Macaw wrote:American Street Fighter on a whole has had good history, and shouldn't be taken as a joke.
Macaw wrote:If you really do just not give a shit though, then just stick to original ST.
Macaw wrote:I think you are being a bit too critical, and getting too irritated with your thought that Sirlin thinks he's a god at designing and that street fighter 2 is now his baby.
Macaw wrote:In all fighting game communities Sirlin gets a lot of heat and a lot of praise, but everyone knows he is not the original designer, that he has never shipped an original video game, and that he is just some dude tinkering with a famous game.
Macaw wrote:I'm sure he knows this as well.
Macaw wrote:The thing is, as stated before, he is a top ST player with heaps of experience both competing in tournaments and running tournaments, and thats what he is getting at in that comment about him being valuable for understanding competitive gaming.
by Macaw » 28 Nov 2008 14:40
icycalm wrote:Macaw wrote:American Street Fighter on a whole has had good history, and shouldn't be taken as a joke.
What exactly is "American Street Fighter"? Is it anything like "Swedish Street Fighter"? Or "Korean Gears of War?" I was under the impression Street Fighter was a Japanese game?
Don't confuse a game's country of origin with its local playing scenes. You are embarassing me. And yes, I am aware that some American dude worked on ST, but that doesn't say anything. Plenty of Americans work in the Japanese game industry but a Japanese game is a Japanese game and an American game is an American game goddamn it! How hard can that be to understand?
by fubarduck » 30 Nov 2008 18:54
by icycalm » 30 Nov 2008 21:45
fubarduck wrote:The issues you pointed out in Sirlin's bio are all there. Just like a rich person doesn't have to tell you they're rich and a cool person doesn't have to tell you they're cool, if Sirlin were an excellent game designer, he wouldn't have to puff out his chest in his bio
This explains how modesty came to be a virtue. It was invented only as a protection against envy. That there have always been rascals to urge this virtue, and to rejoice heartily over the bashfulness of a man of merit, has been shown at length in my chief work. In Lichtenberg’s Miscellaneous Writings I find this sentence quoted: Modesty should be the virtue of those who possess no other. Goethe has a well-known saying, which offends many people: It is only knaves who are modest! -- Nur die Lumpen sind bescheiden! but it has its prototype in Cervantes, who includes in his Journey up Parnassus certain rules of conduct for poets, and amongst them the following: Everyone whose verse shows him to be a poet should have a high opinion of himself, relying on the proverb that he is a knave who thinks himself one. And Shakespeare, in many of his Sonnets, which gave him the only opportunity he had of speaking of himself, declares, with a confidence equal to his ingenuousness, that what he writes is immortal.
Modesty in a great mind would, no doubt, be pleasing to the world; but, unluckily, it is a contradictio in adjecto. It would compel a genius to give the thoughts and opinions, nay, even the method and style, of the million preference over his own; to set a higher value upon them; and, wide apart as they are, to bring his views into harmony with theirs, or even suppress them altogether, so as to let the others hold the field. In that case, however, he would either produce nothing at all, or else his achievements would be just upon a level with theirs. Great, genuine and extraordinary work can be done only in so far as its author disregards the method, the thoughts, the opinions of his contemporaries, and quietly works on, in spite of their criticism, on his side despising what they praise. No one becomes great without arrogance of this sort.
by Bradford » 01 Dec 2008 16:34
by icycalm » 01 Dec 2008 17:55
Bradford wrote:Thus, pretending that one is less than they are is equally bad as pretending one is more.
by Bradford » 01 Dec 2008 19:27
icycalm wrote:And besides, it can often prove advantageous in life to pretend to be more or less than we ourselves think we are. If Sirlin's boasting lands him his desired job, then I mean, hell, it was a good idea he did it!
by icycalm » 01 Dec 2008 19:42
Nietzsche wrote:When stepped on, a worm doubles up. That is clever. In that way he lessens the probability of being stepped on again. In the language of morality: humility.
by kod » 03 Dec 2008 21:00