CAVE-STG

[icycalm]

http://www.cave-stg.com/

Okay, so here's the deal. EOJ over at CAVE-STG has so far written four great reviews of Cave games, which I am considering posting on the frontpage. However, there is a snag: He hates me and there is no way in hell he would ever agree to let me do it. -- But let me qualify all the above.

EOJ does indeed hate me, but I am 100% sure that he would be flattered if I posted his reviews on my frontpage. I would of course include a line at the top, saying that the reviews were originally published on his site, and linking him, etc. And of course his reviews would look much better on Insomnia, with a nice header, better layout, screens and videos, credits, and the like. I mean look how terrible his layout is:

http://www.cave-stg.com/reviews/

And on top of all that they would be read by several thousand people more, something which EOJ would of course be happy about -- not to mention that many of them would end up discovering his site for the first time. As it stands, only people who are ALREADY big fans of Cave end up reading his reviews -- so by posting them on Insomnia they would end up reaching a much wider readership.

So basically, if me and him didn't hate each other so fiercely, I have no doubt that he would have loved to see this happen. (And let me correct something here: HE is the one doing the hating here -- I don't really hate him; I just think that he is a bit of a prick and an idiot -- but more of a prick than an idiot. He is much cleverer than the average Shmucks.com retard, anyway, which is why his reviews are so much better than what most of them could ever have written.)

So, basically, I have decided to go ahead and do it, whether he wants me to or not. There is nothing he or anyone else can do to stop me, and besides, like I said, I am convinced he will be happy with the results, even though he will probably never admit it publicly.

So, yeah. What do people think about this? I think I've made up my mind to do it anyway, and I am posting all this for the benefit of EOJ himself, and for whoever of EOJ's friends (Gaijin Punch et al.) ends up being interested to know my reasons afterwards.

At the end of the day, the main reasons I am doing this is to help get the word out there, as much as possible, that Cave rocks, and also to be able to enjoy his reviews in a visual format that does justice to their contents. -- And let no one say that I am doing it for the hits! If I wanted hits I could have whipped out a couple of 1-star reviews of Lost Odyssey and Crisis Core, each of which would net me more hits than three dozen reviews of random bullet hell games.

Let me also say one more thing. I had originally planned to review every Cave game personally, but as time goes by the prospects of this happening are getting slimmer and slimmer. I have only played 30 or 40 credits of Mushi Futari so far -- all of them back when I was in Tokyo -- and all of them on the outdated original (1.0) version of the game. I have not played MMP or Ibara Kuro or DFK at all. Even if I were to buy them tomorrow, it would be months before I would feel confident of reviewing them -- and I am NOT buying them tomorrow. So even though I might disagree on some points with EOJ on the Mushi Futari review, and even though I am convinced I could do a better job than him in reviewing all these games, whenever I get around to doing so, I still believe that his reviews of these extremely technical games are as good as anyone can make them on the internet -- apart from me. But anyway, it's not important that me and him agree 100% on everything he says, just as I do not agree with many things other people are saying in their reviews posted on this website. The important thing is that the person doing the reviewing is an expert on the genre in question, and that he possesses a reasonably strong critical faculty -- and EOJ definitely fulfills both of these criteria.

So yeah -- that's all. I think I am going to go off and start posting those reviews now.

[icycalm]

So after this, the following Cave games will have been reviewed on Insomnia:

Dodonpachi: Daifukkatsu
Muchi Muchi Pork!
Mushihime-sama Futari
Pink Sweets ~Ibara Sore Kara~
Ibara Kuro ~Black Label~
Espgaluda II
Mushihime Tama
Espgaluda
Ketsui ~Kizuna Jigoku Tachi~
Uo Poko
Dangun Feveron

I'd like to get to a point where I've got reviews of the company's entire backlog, and get up to date with current releases. That'd be nice.

[Recap]

I haven't read his stuff nor I plan to do so since my opinion on his intellectual skills is a little bit different than yours, besides the fact he lacks actual video-game culture. But I'll say this -- go and post it if you feel like it. You'll be linking the original site, after all. Leave the worries for the moment he asks you to remove it, in case that happens.

[JoshF]

I can't imagine that going well.

[Jedah]

You should try to get along. There is no need for hating just because you can't match every aspect of your characters. That's for the sake of both of you.

As for the reviews, I think that he knows the games but he lacks the writing skill. He is not as good a writer as an expert in this type of games.

[ViewtifulZFO]

I imagine posting those reviews without his permission would only exacerbate your situation with him.

Ask him first -- I think the real qualification here is whether you believe these are the best reviews of Cave games that you can find. If so, pursue them beyond a simple request, or bring some incentives (not necessarily monetary) to the table.

[watatatow]

http://www.cave-stg.com/forum/index.php?topic=480.0

It's a real shame that you guys can't work things out, because it seems like a bit of a waste to have those reviews remain exclusive to such a poorly-designed website.

By being that way, he's contradicting his site's own purpose too...

The aims of this site are to expose CAVE's games to a wider Western audience

...but oh well.

[icycalm]

We seem to have a bit of whining and cross-forum drama on our hands. There's no communicating with that guy -- every previous attempt utterly foundered.

And I mean, I could have just copy-pasted his reviews in the appropriate threads, like people do all the time in countless forums, but then they would have looked just as crappy as on his site. I really just wanted to do them justice, you know?

And as I explained to him, there are currently dozens of pages on the internet, either on blogs or forums, where people have copy-pasted my own articles or reviews, and in many cases NOT EVEN LINKED ME, and there's not much I can do about it, even if I wanted to. Besides, at the end of the day, I don't even want to (though I must admit I DID want to in the beginning... but I eventually grew out of that phase). I am after all writing this stuff so that people can read it, and of course the more the better.

[Jedah]

I've seen in his forum that some text is altered in the process. I text-compared the reviews of Muchi Muchi Pork! and there are many text alterations, even though there's no clear change of the meaning. This is not what posting is about. This is modification of his work. This is not right and I don't agree with this tactic Icy. Whatever the number of your work's plagiarists, there is not a logical reason to do the same to him just because you don't like each other.

[icycalm]

Are you on drugs dude or what? You have a problem because I edited out his word repetitions and clumsy phrasings? Here is an example:


Original
When you see the game in motion, the first thing to jump out (to jump out where?) is the fact that everything is animated wonderfully and the game is brilliantly detailed. Such incredible detail (second use of the word 'detail' in a single line) and animation unfortunately takes a heavy toll on the SH3 processor at the helm of CAVE’s proprietary PCB, and there are parts where the game stutters in a noticably jerky fashion (pleonasm -- ALL stuttering is done "in a jerky fashion") (the beginning of stage 2 is a glaring example).

vs.

Edited
When I first saw the game in motion what jumped out at me is how colorful and detailed it looks and how wonderfully everything is animated. Such graphical lushness unfortunately takes a heavy toll on Cave's aging SH3-based hardware, and there are parts where the game seriously stutters (the beginning of stage 2 being a glaring example).


The edited text is far superior to the original. He should go back to his site and replace the original versions with the edited ones and thank me for it.


Also,

Whatever the number of your work's plagiarists, there is not a logical reason to do the same to him just because you don't like each other.

You are not paying attention. I never said that anyone plagiarized my writings. I said they copy-paste them. Do you understand the difference? Plagiarism is copying parts of someone's else's work and passing them off as your own. Copy-pasting is copy-pasting.

[Jedah]

The thing is that whatever you (or the rest of the world or whatever) think about the modifications, the guy wrote some reviews, he is pleased with them and he doesn't want you to edit, improvise or in any way use them. And you are doing the exact opposite. You have explained your motive, but can't you see that the whole case SCREAMS "personal dispute"? Do you like all this fanfare on his forum and currently on this one? Just because you think he isn't going to do anything about it?

I would personally prefer to wait till you or anyone else with his OWN WILL will have the chance to write the reviews properly.

[Bradford]

Well, the amount of stupidity on display here is pretty entertaining.

Icy already addressed plagiarism, which is obviously passing someone else's work off as your own, and which has not remotely occurred here.

How about his thread title? "Insomnia is stealing my reviews." Stealing requires deprivation from the owner, jackass - he's copying your reviews, not taking them away from you.

My favorite part, though, is this:

Until those reviews are removed from insomnia.ac I will not be publishing any reviews of newer CAVE games here . . . .

That's like the 7-11 owner closing down the entire convenience store because one guy keeps coming in and shoplifting a bag of chips - that'll teach 'im!

Interestingly, the one thing that you arguably may have done, Icy, is what some people call "reverse plagiarism," or "reverse passing-off;" passing off your own work as the work of someone else (in this case by not giving attribution for your editing). I recommend adding a line immediately below "By EOJ" stating "Edited by ..."

[icycalm]

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I'll try one more time.

I am not trying to justify what I did or prove that it is in some way right. I am only explaining WHY I did what I did -- irrespective of "rightness" or "wrongness" -- in short: because I wanted to. I wanted to have those four reviews on this site, professionally edited and smartly formatted, and cross-linked with all the other reviews, for the edification of myself and everyone else who enjoys Cave's games. I couldn't care less about morality or EOJ's feelings. I have done many things in my life that people would call immoral -- indeed, things that most people would be horrified to learn that I had done them. And I will continue to do such things simply because they are the most enjoyable ones. As for EOJ's feelings -- due to our past history, they simply do not enter the equation anywhere.

The thing is that whatever you (or the rest of the world or whatever) think about the modifications, the guy wrote some reviews, he is pleased with them and he doesn't want you to edit, improvise or in any way use them. And you are doing the exact opposite.

Yes, I know, and? Have I not explained that I do not care in the slightest about what he wants or doesn't want?

You have explained your motive, but can't you see that the whole case SCREAMS "personal dispute"?

No I can't. To me, in fact, it SCREAMS "no dispute". Because if I was trying to get back at him for something I would have presumably tried to make his reviews sound and look worse than they do, not better. And if I had indeed made them worse I would not have wanted them on my frontpage. Your reasoning is logically inconsistent. What you should have been able to see, if you could think about this clearly, is that I am posting his reviews DESPITE of our past history, not BECAUSE of it. It all goes to show how much I like them. He could not have received a higher display of praise from me.

Do you like all this fanfare on his forum and currently on this one?

Not particularly, but on the other hand I don't mind it either. A little forum drama is good once in a while to stir things up a bit. You should have seen the 10+page drama threads I was getting myself into back in the IC/Shmups/Select Button days.

The point is that I enjoy seeing his reviews on my frontpage so much, that I am willing to go into quite a bit of trouble to make sure that they stay there. So if my hosting company (which is located in the US) ends up pulling them down for him, I will look into getting a host in Europe, or offshore, and reposting them later. It's a good idea to do this anyway, just for complete peace of mind. It's nice to know that you can post whatever you want on your site, without anyone being able to do anything about it.

I would personally prefer to wait till you or anyone else with his OWN WILL will have the chance to write the reviews properly.

I am amazed that you can't see how stupid your objections sound. "You would personally prefer to wait..." But you are STILL waiting, and so am I, and so is everyone else. When I end up playing these games, no matter how many years down the line, I will of course want to share my opinions on them with others. In the meantime, copy-pasting these reviews does not somehow prevent that from happening. I could have copy-pasted them in the forum, and then neither you nor anyone else would be whining now, despite the end result being the same (the copy-pasting of the reviews to another page).

[icycalm]

Also,

Interestingly, the one thing that you arguably may have done, Icy, is what some people call "reverse plagiarism," or "reverse passing-off;" passing off your own work as the work of someone else (in this case by not giving attribution for your editing). I recommend adding a line immediately below "By EOJ" stating "Edited by ..."

lol, yeah. But, really, I am the goddamn editor of this site. Every single thing that goes up on the frontpage has been thoroughly edited by me. Some stuff has been edited so much that you would be hard pressed to recognize the originals if you read them. For example the KOFXI and NGBC reviews by Dark Geese, a Mexican guy from SRK. The original reviews were in such terrible English, they might as well have been Spanish. So there's nothing strange in me editing EOJ's reviews. The only strange thing is in me posting them in the first place. That is indeed strange, I am not denying it, but hey, what can I say, I am a strange guy I guess. And an immoral one. And, etc. etc., (insert your own label here).

[Bradford]

As you say, it's your site. I'm just letting you know that, technically speaking, your edited version constitutes a distinct work of authorship from EOJ, called a "derivative work." Funnily enough, you actually have a copyright to all of the aspects of the derivative work which constitute an original work of authorship by you (if any), while EOJ retains the copyright to the remainder. Potentially, if he were to post your edited version on his website, you could contact his hosting service and have it taken down for violating your copyright.

Additionally, with respect to the more heavily edited reviews that you mentioned, the original authors may not have retained any copyright rights in them. It's actually a somewhat philosophical issue, revolving around what is called the "idea/expression dichotomy." That is, copyright protection vests only in expression, never in ideas. It is easiest to explain in literary terms, because obviously all writing is comprised of ideas which are expressed in a specific manner by their author. The unique expression of the author is protected; the underlying ideas are not. There is a hazy line somewhere that is crossed when a new work expresses the same ideas in too similar a manner to a previous work.

So basically, while you might be prevented from copy-pasting EOJ's work, no one could stop you from taking his opinions and facts about the game, and expressing them on your own. Facts alone, no matter how valuable they are or difficult it may have been to discover them, are never subject to copyright protection.

On the other hand, reverse passing-off is subject to enforcement as a kind of harm to another person's reputation, or as a deceptive trade practice, rather than copyright. I can't write and publish a novel, for example, and then say it was written by Stephen King (without getting sued, that is).

All that aside, I'm glad you said your web host is in the U.S., as I noticed that EOJ also appears to be located in the States. The U.S. Copyright Act has more formal prerequisites to enforcement than most other countries. Though it might not carry any weight with your web host, EOJ would actually have to formally register his work with the United States Copyright Office as a condition precedent to filing a claim for infringement.

...and I'm sure that's more than anyone wanted to know on the subject - I'm having a bit of a slow day at the office.

[icycalm]

My host pulled them down, lol. Without even contacting me or anything. I'll try filing a counter-claim, and if it doesn't work I'll start looking into offshore hosting.

[raphael]

I can't believe it. What kind of host is that ?

P.S: Whatever is behind it, too bad, this was cool.
And by the way, I am sure it's not, but if needed I made copies.

[icycalm]

P.S: Whatever is behind it, too bad, this was cool.

Don't you miss those pages now? I already miss them.

Did you manage to save the header images at the top, by the way? I have backups of everything else except of those. If you have them, do me a favor and email them to me...

[mees]

Did you just add the star ratings yourself?

[icycalm]

lol, yes. Isn't that hilarious?

[Bradford]

Well now I definitely think you should just rewrite them as your own.

[icycalm]

So my host finally responded to my counter-claim:

Hello,

Thank you for writing. I am notifying the complaining party of your
Counter-Notification. The content in question will be re-instated in
10-15 business days per the DMCA law.

It's basically a formal procedure. This DMCA law requires hosts to temporarily remove content if someone complains. Then they are required to re-instate it if the other person files a counter-claim. The next step is to go to court. If EOJ wants to go to the trouble of taking me to court, then so be it. In the end he won't achieve anything, and all I have to do then is switch to an offshore host and repost his reviews.

If I do this, by the way, there will also be an added bonus. I'll start a subforum where we can trade hard to find ISOs, DS ROMs, etc. I've actually been thinking about doing this for a while.

Well now I definitely think you should just rewrite them as your own.

Not as my own, since I do not want my name associated with opinions which I do not necessarily hold. But I could say they were written by "John Smith" or whatever, removing also the links to his site.

But yeah, this is not a very elegant solution. (Besides, I really DO want to send people to his site. I really like it and visit it frequently.)

[Bradford]

You could say they're written by Alan Smithee.

[icycalm]

If he wants to put an "Edited by..." at the top of the article, that would be preferable to the current state. At least then people could read my original versions on my site and know they had been edited by someone other than myself on the insomnia site.

http://www.cave-stg.com/forum/index.php ... 28#msg8028

I will do this.

I normally don't do it because it goes without saying that a site's editor edits whatever goes on it, but I have no problem making an exception. This is, after all, an exceptional case.

And EOJ, I am really looking forward to your Mushi Futari Black Label review! Ganbatte ne!

[Afterburn]

I know I'm late to the discussion, but the fact you gave EOJ credit and linked to his website (in the original posting of his reviews) should have been more than enough. You're trying to give his reviews more exposure, for crying out loud!! Who doesn't want that?

I contributed to a "Best Music of 2008" list a few weeks ago for the website of a friend who's a music journalist. He freelances for the LA Weekly and their blog decided to copy and paste the list, which included contributions from others writers in addition to those from my friend and myself. I wasn't notified that they were going to post it, but you know what? It's the LA fucking Weekly. Even my friend's blog gets a fraction of hits compared to the blog of a large newspaper. And it gives me some exposure too, so why would I complain?

Anyways, good to see some sort of agreement has been reached.