[MD] Sonic the Hedgehog 2

[icycalm]

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/megadrive/sonicthehedgehog2/

Allegedly, Yuji Naka left Sega of Japan in disgust after Sonic The Hedgehog was released and ended up at the Sega Technical Institute, where he began work on the sequel. Is there anything you can tell us to validate that rumor and if so, what happened there?

It was never clear to me whether he left in disgust, but he was clearly at the Sega Technical Institute, and he clearly brought a few guys with him. They had a bunch of our guys, and they worked on Sonic The Hedgehog 2, which in my opinion is the best Sonic we ever did.

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php ... 20Kalinske

[JoshF]

a bunch of our guys

Kid Chameleon alumni, no less.

[BlackerOmegalon]

I seriously doubt that "his guys" did anything. Chris Senn has described STI on his website as "Japanese/Sonic Team on one side, "everyone else" on the other side."

[RemyC]

So now we have rings, and an infinite potential for recovery from nearly any mistake. But an action game can't be completely without obstruction or penalty, can it?

The rings allowed you to access the bonus stages, which would increase the complexity of the game, bringing forward a challenge to avoid being hit. Once inside the bonus stage you would then be faced with the task of obtaining the Chaos emerald. Whether or not you retrieve the Emerald, you are placed back in front of the checkpoint with zero rings.

When it came to the final boss fights with Robo-Sonic and Robotnik you are given zero rings. The challenge is where it counts... a zero tolerance for mistakes finale.

[icycalm]

The rings allowed you to access the bonus stages, which would increase the complexity of the game, bringing forward a challenge to avoid being hit. Once inside the bonus stage you would then be faced with the task of obtaining the Chaos emerald. Whether or not you retrieve the Emerald, you are placed back in front of the checkpoint with zero rings.

I never cared much for the emeralds. I just wanted to clear the game, which I did within a couple of days of getting it. I would have much preferred the challenge to be in the main stages themselves, than hidden in some stupid mini-game accessible under certain conditions. The way to increase complexity is in the main game itself -- not by adding retarded mini-games in a pathetic attempt to compensate for the lack of it. The recently reviewed Lost Odyssey suffers from the same idiocy. Instead of making the turn-based battle system -- which was the game's focus -- more complex and difficult, they added a retarded reflex-based "ring system" where you have to time a button press for better attack results.

When it came to the final boss fights with Robo-Sonic and Robotnik you are given zero rings.

Good. Had the designers done the same for the entire game I am sure Josh would have rated it more highly.

The challenge is where it counts... a zero tolerance for mistakes finale.

The challenge only counts in the finale? In what universe?

[RemyC]

I believe that you are being too hard on the bonus stages when you refer to them as, "retarded". The skills required to be successful within the bonus stages are much like the ones necessary to avoid obstacles within the action stages. If anything the bonus stages ARE what is commonly referred to as sonic at his best: Sonic in constant motion.
Try giving the game a play-through with the intention of collecting all the emeralds. It doesn't make the game more challenging by leaps and bounds, but it certainly provides more of a challenge.

The challenge only counts in the finale? In what universe?

I did not mean, 'only'. I was trying to imply that they did not make the entire game a cake-walk. They ensure that you need to be a competent player to actually complete the game.

[JoshF]

The Sonic bonus stages AAAAAARE retarded, and what challenge they have is not the challenge I'm looking for. Like, you have the segment in Metal Slug X where you have to make it over those huge missiles coming out of wells with artillery being launched at you and soldiers with shields above you shooting down, or how about that part in Pocky & Rocky where you're floating on a small raft with turtles trying to drag you into the water, one of them is throwing bombs at you from another raft, and crabs floating inside bubbles landing on the raft and then homing in on your position. Then you have peek-a-boo spikes in the Sonic 2 minigame...

I did not mean, 'only'. I was trying to imply that they did not make the entire game a cake-walk. They ensure that you need to be a competent player to actually complete the game.

It's no surprise the last stage was my favorite part, but too little too late.

[El Chaos]

About the "Naka leaving SoJ in disgust" bit, I thought it was because he was "frustrated over Sega's seniority-based salary policy", as stated here.

The skills required to be successful within the bonus stages are much like the ones necessary to avoid obstacles within the action stages.

The special stages are severely dumbed down challenges when compared to the complexity of the game proper, actually. The sole challenge you can expect from the special stages is to not meet the ring quota, which is the only point to them. To an extent, the complexity found in the special stages of both the first and the third games is considerably greater.

If anything the bonus stages ARE what is commonly referred to as sonic at his best: Sonic in constant motion.

Absolutely not, ask people about their experience with the DS Rush titles and the Unleashed game, and they'll most probably tell you they definitely don't play like Sonic games (what's more, during special stages Sonic doesn't run, he's essentially stuck in a single point in the screen and can only be moved left or right, you only have to place him where the rings'll show up while avoiding mines, and that's all there is to it). Sonic 2's platforming is the weakest in the entire original Mega Drive library. You can expect to run freely without much hassle in Green Hill Zone, but the running is downright excised in Marble Zone and mostly replaced by an elaborate, intricate obstacle course in Spring Yard Zone. Minor variations in the original game's mechanics confer each stage with a distinct feel, something that's mostly absent from its sequel and expanded upon in the (complete) third title.

[RemyC]

The sole challenge you can expect from the special stages is to not meet the ring quota, which is the only point to them.

during special stages Sonic doesn't run, he's essentially stuck in a single point in the screen and can only be moved left or right, you only have to place him where the rings'll show up while avoiding mines

In a 2D platforming game aren't, "Left and right" two of your four options in terms of direction? You are able to jump in the bonus stages. So, that covers up and down.
Yes you will keep Sonic in the path of the rings while avoiding mines, just like you would during the action stage. The more rings you get the better your score.

[El Chaos]

Of course, I didn't think I'd have to clarify that you move left and right confined inside a small half-pipe without scrolling, and the jump move serves no practical purpose whatsoever besides avoiding incoming mines in the lower middle region of the aforementioned half-pipe you are confined into, which can also be achieved by merely moving to either side.

Even the special stages of Sonic 3D's Saturn version give you a platforming-oriented challenge, with some more objects to interact with, although it's still criminally easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-bPLZb-Ue8&fmt=18

[icycalm]

RemyC, I bought Sonic 2 to play a 2D SIDE-SCROLLING PLATFORM GAME.

That's all that needs to be said about the bonus stages. Even if they were completely awesome (which they aren't), even if they were, for example, a perfect copy of Deus Ex, they would still be retarded.

[Archonus]

If anything the bonus stages ARE what is commonly referred to as sonic at his best: Sonic in constant motion.

That type of thinking is a very large part of the reason Sonic games are so tragically awful these days. Sonic has become much more about spectacle than actual challenge. I remember when loop-de-loops weren't automated and didn't come complete with a zipline at their entries. I also remember when Sonic had to rely on momentum gained from skillful platforming to run faster, and didn't have the ability to automatically reach top speed with the press of a button. Sonic Unleashed would have been much better if it didn't have that completely unnecessary Boost move that could be found in the Rush series.

[icycalm]

Something I'd like to clear up concerning this review. It has been discussed in a couple of places:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=24322
http://halomonks.net/forums/phpBB3/view ... 29&p=20312

and one of the comments that has been brought up (among many that are not worth addressing) is that the reason most people liked Sonic back then was that they were too young and easily dazzled by graphics. This argument, however, does not apply to game reviewers of the time, some or many of whom were in their late 20's early 30's, and by this reasoning should therefore have known better.

So it wasn't really so much -- or at least entirely -- about age, but more about exposure to videogames in general. Games were new back then and EVERYONE was dazzled by Sonic regardless of their age.

(And yes, this includes me.)

[Recap]

Not to mention that the article is about Sonic 2 and not Sonic 1. Sonic 1 was at its release an unmatched visual achievement (even though way less pretty in the end than previous pieces such as the first Ganbare Goemon for the SFC or even Mario World), but isn't Sonic 2 just more of the same? I mean, between 1 and 2, we got Chohmakaimura, Contra Spirits, Monster World III, Axelay, Thunder Force IV, Rayxanber III, MD Taluluto-kun, etc., etc. (not to mention AES and arcade games), who could really give a shit about Sonic 2's visuals?

[icycalm]

I don't care much for the visuals of the Thunder Force games. Monster World III I never played. Same with Taluluto-kun and Rayxanber III. Choh and Spirits I played, but I would not say they looked better than Sonic 1 or 2 -- just different (well, maybe Choh did look better, but not to the point of making me "not give a shit" about Sonic 2's visuals). As for the Neo Geo, I can't remember whether by the time I got Sonic 2 I had already bought a Neo Geo, or whether I got it sometime afterward. Still, the Neo didn't WOW me until Samurai Spirits, and that came out much later.

The point in all of this is that it's a bit disingenuous to expect every gamer to immediately buy everything that comes out everywhere in the world and compare their graphics on the spot. No one really has the money to do that. Besides, even in that case, that wouldn't say much. I still "give a shit" about the visuals in R-Type, even though I've since played many games that, technically, look a lot better. What I am trying to say is that the game still wows me every time I play it.

[Recap]

So do I. My point actually was that Sonic 2, as far as I know, is Sonic 1 with maybe a little bit of more detail. And everybody got already amazed with Sonic 1. In other words: I'm sure if Burning Fight or Garou Densetsu didn't WOW you was because there already were Final Fight and SFII. The WOW factor vanishes when you just replicate the formula.

(Anyway I guess you missed Magician Lord at its very moment. That's what made me buy the AES then and indeed WOWED everybody I knew.)

[El Chaos]

I can only guess that, thanks to Sega's media muscle and heavily portrayed rebellious image, Sonic turned into a fad, much in the same way Mario did. And, while I agree that there isn't much novelty in the mechanics department, of course Sonic 2's graphics do look better than Sonic 1's.

I mean, the games' defining feature, besides speedy, smooth physics-based platforming, was stage variety, and the bigger color palette and additional layers of parallax scrolling certainly set a new standard for the series. Even though the second game's stage design wasn't as original as the first one, it was quite appealing nonetheless, and the fact that much of that parallax scrolling was based on the player character's momentum contributed to the rollercoaster-like sensation that was pretty much exclusive to the series.

[Recap]

Anyhow I now realize that it was a bit silly mentioning titles from other systems. A MD user didn't have to know necessarily what the SFC was getting then in order to properly compare. Still, it always bugged me all the attention the Sonic series got from the (Western) public. Not really different to that the Mario series did, but at least this had some decent games, and only repeated itself once in a while.

[RemyC]

RemyC, I bought Sonic 2 to play a 2D SIDE-SCROLLING PLATFORM GAME.

That's all that needs to be said about the bonus stages. Even if they were completely awesome (which they aren't), even if they were, for example, a perfect copy of Deus Ex, they would still be retarded.

What are your thoughts on the way that some contra games switch from side scrolling levels, to overhead levels?

[icycalm]

some contra games

What are these "contra games"? I've never heard of them. A new genre, perhaps?

[RemyC]

Ill go with, "Super C", to be more specific

[icycalm]

No apostrophe, no period, and lacking even the basic intelligence necessary to understand the sarcastic nature of my response, and to reply appropriately. I have given you plenty of chances to start conforming to this website's posting guidelines, and you either couldn't care less, or are simply too young (under nine years of age, in which case you have no business posting here) or too feebleminded (ditto) to conform. In either case, you give me no choice, I am afraid.

[Molloy]

Sonic 2 didn't get universal praise from everybody back in the day. I recall Games Master UK magazine giving it a very negative review. I can't remember if it got 60 percent, or something even more controversial like 30 percent. They panned it anyway.

If you want challenge try Sonic 2 on the Master System. It's a total bastard. The boss battles are particularly enjoyable.

Whatever flaws Sonic 2 has (and I thought the reviewer was being rather harsh) I'd still choose it over anything else in the series. Sonic 1 has water levels that you have to do and Sonic CD and S&K both have dull, copy pasted level design with no character.

[icycalm]

Why do I remember you saying the exact opposite? You were going to write a mini-review saying that 2 was the worst in the series and a huge letdown. Has your opinion changed this radically in the meantime?

And Sonic 1 has water levels? And 2's can be avoided? Really?

It's been so long since I played these games, that they have all blurred into each other in my memory.

[El Chaos]

I think I must disagree on the S&K bit. Stages (and the gimmicks associated with them) vary wildly from one another, they are of a considerably larger scale, starting with Sonic 3 you get a more mechanically variegated set of items, and Bonus Stages (as opposed to Special Stages) that actually reward you with tangible items that are immediately useful. And then there is stage design; gimmicks and situations almost never seem to repeat themselves save for loop-de-loops (you get to run on the water surface or explore beneath in Hydrocity, spinning tops in Marble Garden, cannons and giant drums in Carnival Night, sticky vines in Mushroom Hill, light switches in Sandopolis, the "gravity tunnel" part in Death Egg, just to name a few), enemies are also abundantly diverse, gravity is actually reversed and normalized in bursts during Act 2 of Death Egg Zone...

I'll give that it's still easy peasy, and there's a bit less sense of a "flow" given that you frequently have to slow down or come to complete halts (which, according to moronic journalists, is "totally un-sonic-y :mad: "), yet it also demands more thoughtful reactions from the player.

But I agree with you in that I can't understand why some people seem to regard Sonic CD as the finest. Sure, it's really different, and attempting to destroy Eggman's machine in the past of every zone is a much more relevant way of getting the Good Ending than going through the Special Zones, yet running through stages at a consistently high speed after Palmtree Panic ranges from unlikely to impossible. It's quite contradictory with the "Sonic is all about SPEED" mentality.