[360] [PS3] Ninja Gaiden 2 / II

[icycalm]

http://insomnia.ac/news/ninja-gaiden-2-ii/

[Jedah]

Very impressive videos indeed. Especially the GDC 2008 Temple of Sacrifice one (occult names rock) is astounding. I've never played the Xbox title, but nearly everyone who did raves about how much better it is from Devil May Cry and God of War.

My only consideration is the camera. It's clear from the videos that you get a very narrow perspective, constantly changing and attackers coming from all angles. How are you supposed to compensate your inputs with that? I've recently played God of War, where it chooses a wide, smooth-moving camera to allow the view of the whole battle scene. This greatly aids your judgment of the battle situation and keeps the controls firmly in place. There are close-up finishing moves without disorientating your view. How does Ninja Gaiden feel?

Mind you I'm not saying that God of War is a better game. I'm only pointing out a particularly nice feature.

[icycalm]

I haven't got round to playing the God of War games yet, so I can't make any comparisons. Ninja Gaiden's camera is anyway fantastic. I mean of course there are some times when enemies are off-screen, but hey, that's how it is in real life too. I mean people don't have eyes at the back of their heads -- even ninjas. The point is that in Ninja Gaiden the camera is 99% of the time smart enough to show you what Ryu sees, and a great deal more. So when you are surrounded it's up to you to be aware of the location and movements of all enemies, even off-screen ones, and plan your movements accordingly. Otherwise you might as well be playing Diablo.

The point is that there are no cheap deaths in Ninja Gaiden, so I don't expect there to be any in the sequel... Man, you really need to play Black or Sigma. Together with the original DMC they are the best 3D brawlers yet.

I'll have to play God of War eventually to see where it fits in the hierarchy... Did you enjoy that?

[Jedah]

A friend of mine has Sigma for the PS3. He hates it because he sucks in it. I'll try to persuade him to lend me his hardware to have a go. Or else I'll track down a used Xbox (Xbox in retail has been non existent in Greece since 2006) and a copy of the original one.

As for God of War, I fully enjoyed it and I must say it's an epic, polished, gargantuan adventure. You fight all kinds of fiends taken from ancient Greek mythology (you even take on gods of Olympus!) in lavishly detailed environments. It is very impressive; you should take a look at videos on the net; it's visually the redline of PS2. Its only constraints are the battles, which are simplistic compared to DMC3 and probably Ninja Gaiden. The main mechanic consists of upgrading arms and spells with red orbs (DMC rip off) found is chests (some are hidden) or thrown by dead enemies (the quantity depends on the way you kill them).

As a game GOW focuses on cinematic scenes of enormous scale (you enter a castle which is tied on the back of a Titan while he moves crawling in the desert!), on fast paced very brutal/gory action, some adventuring (puzzles) and storytelling of a myth. To put it simply, imagine a DMC type of game, in ancient Greece, greater scale in environments, simpler battles, cinematic feeling, orchestral scores, medium challenge, VERY BRUTAL (300 film quality of gore). You should play the first at all costs and try the PSP one; I liked it. I haven't played the second PS2 game; I'll buy it today probably before it disappears from retail (it's Platinum = 20 euros).

Hydra (first boss) video (3 forms): http://www.gametrailers.com/player/4737.html

UPDATE: I forgot to mention that enemy AI is actually very dumb and cheap. But once you get the feel of control over Kratos, they don't stand a chance.

[icycalm]

Yeah, God of War looks better than many PS3 games. I'll have to try it at some point. Aren't they making a new one for the PS3? I should start a thread about that.

[bullethell]

Ninja Gaiden is my favorite videogame. Ever. It was the reason I bought the big machine back in 2004. NG2 looks exactly like what I was expecting from the next gen sequel. Blood, amazing visuals, doll-like moody characters and awesome backgrounds with detailed castles. I hope it's as hard as the original or even harder. Another reason why I love the original is its difficulty level. I will definitely be there, playing it when it comes out. Can't wait!

Can anyone confirm that PAL version will not be censored? (No more green blood please!)

[Jedah]

Bought a second-hand Xbox along with Ninja Gaiden and Halo 2 today. NG Black was nowhere to be found; I'm lucky enough there was one copy left of the original game. I'll give you my opinion after playing it. I'm leaving now cause the machine is booting...

The joypad is broken, I'll have to go back and replace it. Damn the second-hand market...

[icycalm]

Let's try to keep this thread focused on the sequel. Start a Ninja Gaiden thread in the "discussion" forum if you want.

[Jedah]

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=51

Alarming details about the camera. I'm playing the first game and there are some significant camera problems too. The problem exists on both battle and platforming sections, destroying your momentum and creating an added difficulty. I hope Team Ninja solves the problem before release.

[icycalm]

I think I'll have to write an article about the camera thing. People nowadays seem to think that a game's camera should be able to read your mind. I mean if you had issues with the original's camera I guess that's the only thing that would satisfy you. Or perhaps an RTS-style bird's eye viewpoint, like in Diablo for example.

Anyway. I just started playing the game (got up to Chapter 3 at the moment), and the camera does seem to have taken a step or two backwards, which is a disappointment. I can work with it, though, and find the added challenge both satisfying and not unrealistic (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). Can't say I have any more complaints at this point -- game is lots of fun -- and if it stays that way I should be beating it sometime in the next few days. I'll have more to say soon.

[Jedah]

I have been playing this game for a week now, on and off. The game is very addictive but I must admit that it leaves you wanting. The camera is abysmal, especially in boss battles. The camera is controlled with the right stick, meaning that you can safely control it if and ONLY if there are no enemies around. When you start to dodge, jump and fight hordes after hordes of enemies and quickly moving bosses, the camera simply destroys your perspective and you lack the extra thumb to control it :P. Alexei boss battle is a prime example of the camera problems. As for the game challenge I don't have a clear image yet, because I'm playing in the easiest setting (Path of the Acolyte). Right now I'm stuck in Chapter 8, where the challenge raises dramatically. An Xbox Live friend that loves challenging action games (he has utterly destroyed DMC 4 getting all achievements) told me that NG II is not that good in the highest difficulty setting due to the cheap ways required to stay alive. He told me that the first NG was a much better game in this, thanks to the skillful play required to conquer it.

To conclude I like the game, I play it non-stop although I have some other excellent games on hold (Halo 3, GTA IV, Call of Duty 4), BUT the game suffers from camera issues. I'm really looking forward to the article/review.

[icycalm]

Yeah, I think your criticisms of the camera in your latest post are close to the mark, even if I hate to admit it. I don't know how they managed to fuck this up but they did. I was just hoping the problems would diminish later on, but thanks to you those hopes are now crushed :(

I am playing on the harder difficulty, by the way, but since I am only up to Chapter 3 I can't comment much on that. Seems equivalent to the original so far, and the boss battles are even a touch easier. As for this:

An Xbox Live friend that loves challenging action games (he has utterly destroyed DMC 4 getting all achievements) told me that NG II is not that good in the highest difficulty setting due to the cheap ways required to stay alive. He told me that the first NG was a much better game in this, thanks to the skillful play required to conquer it.

I would love to hear him elaborate.

[icycalm]

Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 announced in the latest issue Famitsu:

http://videogamerx.gamedonga.co.kr/zbxe/1127733

Not so interesting this time around, since the game was HD to start with.

[El Chaos]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... tory=22868

The new version, which ships this fall, will include new playable characters, online co-op play, and other improvements.

And then there is the trailer: http://gdc.gamespot.com/video/6206586/n ... al-trailer

Blood and gore are conspicuously absent.

[icycalm]

Online co-op? You have to be kidding me. That's awesome news -- thank god I've only played the first 2-3 stages and not spoiled the entire game for myself. At least Tecmo is doing something good with the franchise even without Itagaki.

[Jedah]

The PS3 exclusivity is the biggest problem for me.

[TheBob]

[edit]... friend told me that NG II is not that good in the highest difficulty setting due to the cheap ways required to stay alive. He told me that the first NG was a much better game in this, thanks to the skillful play required to conquer it.

The main difference is the number of enemies and the removal of ability from Ryu. As compared to Ninja Gaiden having only maybe 4 enemies attacking you or even on screen with you generally, Ninja Gaiden II has no practical limits, even to the point of frequent slowdown on the higher difficulties. One of the worst examples of this is later in the game when you are attacked by 3 of the 1st chapter bosses, and 6 ninjas at the same time (similar situations happen often on higher difficulties). There is nothing you can do but Ninpo your way out of it. Otherwise every action you take will be interrupted by shurikens or heavy attacks. NG I Ryu has a roll that is very good for dodging almost everything. NGII has a more limited dash that frequently leaves you open. Also, NGI Ryu could block most enemy attacks, NGII neutered the block greatly.

The end result and main change is this: Ninja Gaiden could be beat without taking any damage (Alma II excluded) and no to little Ninpo use, while NGII demands you take lots and lots of damage (gives you regen after fights as a concession) and demands you use Ninpo all the time (higher difficulty moreso).


*Unfairness Spoiler*
(The best example of the change in formula is the CH7 boss fight. After beating the boss, you will be treated to instant death unless you know to hold the block button down after killing him. No warning whatsoever. Why should you hold block after winning the fight!? What makes this particularly devilish is that many bosses are stunned at low health leaving them open for an obliteration technique. As you run towards the boss to complete this OT, Ryu instead has the OT performed on him.)

[milkycha]

That moment you describe in the *unfairness spoiler* section was one of the most ludicrous moments I've experienced playing games. I wasn't even angry when it happened; I just threw my arms in the air and thought to myself, "Itagaki, you fantastic asshole."

I agree absolutely with what you say about the change in formula from the first game. I love the original Ninja Gaiden (Sigma was even better), and completed it on both Normal and Hard difficulties. While it was a challenge, it never felt unfair -- when you took damage, it was because you were doing something wrong. In NGII, taking damage is completely unavoidable. This is mostly due to the aforementioned nerfing of the roll move. You see, In NGI, there is a technique that involves doing a roll and jumping as soon as the roll ends (often finished with a Flying Swallow move) that renders you all but invincible and allows the slaughter to flow with gay abandon. This ability is conspicuously absent in NGII -- no doubt removed to make the game harder.

While I'm all for making a game more challenging by removing what some view as a cheap trick, they went too far in changing the roll to a dash. In the first game, a skilled player can dance around his enemies in a grotesque ballet, wreaking a bloody vengeance and emerging unscathed. In NGII, too often is the player forced to bounce around in a pinball machine of his enemies' attacks. It's infuriating.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Am I the only one who thought dismembering enemies totally ruined NG2? Once you remove a limb, they basically do nothing but that stupid grab-self-destruct move. It made me actively try to avoid delimbing guys, because delimbed guys are incredibly dumb and not fun to fight. Only every damn thing you do delimbs people, so it's a herculean task not to.

But then, I never got why people loved the first game so much. Roll, jump, roll, jump, Izuna Drop, roll, jump...

[TheBob]

As it turns out, dismembering enemies is crucial to success, because it allows you to use an Obliteration Technique with its all important frames of invincibility. So chopping off limbs, OT, followed by a UT becomes the main pattern of attack. This was a good idea as it turns out. On the highest difficulties, you might have to repeatedly whack an enemy with combos, but now if you can chop a limb off, you can kill them instantly. This works well when fighting enemies that oblige. When fighting bigger baddies who don't have weak limbs, or who can survive multiple UTs, the plan sorta falls apart.

My favorite is when the game takes all the difficulties of the above and throws water levels in for good fun. So now Ryu is even more limited in his moveset.

The main thing I love above Ninja Gaiden I (Black especially) is that skill is rewarded up to a very high level. When you first start, you get dominated by the enemies, but over time you can eventually get skilled enough to complete the game. Yet, still you can go higher. Now you can play on Master Ninja, use no items, take almost no damage and dominate the enemy in turn. Finally, in Ninja Gaiden Black, you can fight two of the most difficult bosses at the same time, or two clones of yourself at the same time. The difficulty is almost insanity, yet you can win and win in bad ass ninja style as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r14qZ-0eTuE

(I was looking for some better videos, but the masters I remember, I could not find. Websites are long gone.)

[icycalm]

But then, I never got why people loved the first game so much.

It had no competition. DMC aside, it was, and still is, the best 3D action game yet.

Roll, jump, roll, jump, Izuna Drop, roll, jump...

You could play it that way, just as you can play many 2D beat ´em ups by spamming one move throughout, but that´s just dumb. Which explains why you never got why people loved the game so much.

[Volteccer_Jack]

As it turns out, dismembering enemies is crucial to success, because it allows you to use an Obliteration Technique with its all important frames of invincibility. So chopping off limbs, OT, followed by a UT becomes the main pattern of attack. This was a good idea as it turns out. On the highest difficulties, you might have to repeatedly whack an enemy with combos, but now if you can chop a limb off, you can kill them instantly.

I'm sure on the harder difficulties that it's quite useful. I just wish dismembered enemies would still fight semi-normally. Enemies in Ninja Gaiden are grab-happy enough without losing limbs and becoming even more grab-happy.

[Doctor Fugue]

These oft-repeated arguments are tired. Allow me to voice some thoughts from the incredibly small minority who believe NGII to be a more finely-tuned game.

The claims of NGII being unfair seem to be based around two things. The first is the Gamefaqs-type claim of Ryu’s supposed lesser abilities. So what if your favourite combo has been toned down? That’s the name of the balance game. This is a completely new challenge, and its mechanics require new techniques. I think people just wanted to jump into NGII with all their formidable NGI moves and crush the game, making the second game appear to be frustrating and broken. I was an experienced veteran of the first game, and yet I nearly died several times on the first level of NGII when I first played it. Eventually I learned that new rules were being enforced, and I had to adapt. Try taking your SFII skills into a SFIII tournament and see how far you get.

The second claim of unfairness revolves around an increased enemy count and a pinball sort of effect where you are continually punished. Again, this is a different game than the first. Yes, it was entirely plausible to complete most of NGI while taking very little damage. And yes, that feat is more difficult here. The rules have changed, but they are not random. To be actually unfair, the game would have to break its own rules, which never happens. Each enemy has strict methods of attack, and, when working in conjunction with each other, they will punish every mistake. It is your job to avoid making that first mistake, and if that fails, it is your job to counter what is being done to you (as in any well-made fighting game). Thankfully the counter-attacks here are more generous. In fact, I have never felt completely helpless in NGII. In desperate and dire straits, yes, but with enough practice those situations are lessened.

The main thing I love above Ninja Gaiden I (Black especially) is that skill is rewarded up to a very high level. When you first start, you get dominated by the enemies, but over time you can eventually get skilled enough to complete the game. Yet, still you can go higher.

That is the greatest thing about both games: learning the system carefully will allow you to progress. It is almost universally agreed that the first game rewards skilled practice, but it is also true of the second. Otherwise, it would be impossible to actually get better. Also:

While it was a challenge, it never felt unfair -- when you took damage, it was because you were doing something wrong. In NGII, taking damage is completely unavoidable.

If the game were indeed unfair, I would never be able to improve my skills and cope with ten incendiary-throwing ninjas. In an unfair game, there would be no benefit to practice, and a beginner would fare just as well as a veteran. When I am killed, I always know that I could have avoided it. If my skills were good enough, if my reactions were fast enough, I could have survived. All the mistakes are my own fault. There are exactly zero unavoidable attacks.

This is mostly due to the aforementioned nerfing of the roll move. You see, In NGI, there is a technique that involves doing a roll and jumping as soon as the roll ends (often finished with a Flying Swallow move) that renders you all but invincible and allows the slaughter to flow with gay abandon.

How is removing a nearly invincible technique deemed to be a problem? If I had played the second game first, I would probably find the original game to be extremely unbalanced. I would be criticizing the introduction of a single manoeuvre that can defeat almost every enemy with ease. I could point to several major moves in NGII that have been vastly improved in terms of effectiveness (Flying Swallow included) and help to counteract the lessened worth of the roll. The fact is that the old system works extremely well in NGI, and the newly balanced system works extremely well in the altered mechanics of NGII.

As compared to Ninja Gaiden having only maybe 4 enemies attacking you or even on screen with you generally, Ninja Gaiden II has no practical limits, even to the point of frequent slowdown on the higher difficulties. One of the worst examples of this is later in the game when you are attacked by 3 of the 1st chapter bosses, and 6 ninjas at the same time (similar situations happen often on higher difficulties).

Judging a game on its higher difficulties is wrong. Nobody complains that Mars Matrix is too hard on level 8 difficulty, because it necessarily changes the balance of the game. The default settings are where the game has been optimized; all others are irrelevant. You want more challenge? Play a different game.

There is nothing you can do but Ninpo your way out of it.

What is wrong with using a special ability as it was intended? When you are unable to combat the foes by regular means, it is time to call upon extraordinary measures.

NG I Ryu has a roll that is very good for dodging almost everything. NGII has a more limited dash that frequently leaves you open. Also, NGI Ryu could block most enemy attacks, NGII neutered the block greatly.

This comparison is overstated. And, how about considering that the dash is more limited to introduce a level of balance not found in the first game? I would be more likely to say that dashing in the second game removes the almost invincible roll of the first, resulting in less dependence on a single kind of defence.

Again, the block is now more balanced. Larger enemies and heavy block-breaking attacks require an alternate strategy; no longer will the almighty block and roll tactics save you from every situation.

Ninja Gaiden could be beat without taking any damage (Alma II excluded) and no to little Ninpo use, while NGII demands you take lots and lots of damage (gives you regen after fights as a concession) and demands you use Ninpo all the time (higher difficulty moreso).

Why include a special ability that is not meant to be used? This is like complaining that you need to bomb in order to complete Batsugun. Of course you should bomb, it is part of the game. It’s not like it is cheating of some sort.

Yes, you will take more damage in NGII. Yes, there is regenerative health in NGII. Both complement each other perfectly. How exactly is regenerative health lame? (The "lame" designation has apparently been edited out since last I read this.) Nothing is lame if it works well in conjunction with other mechanics of the game. Are hypers lame in Dai Ou Jou?

Games are played by their rules, not yours.

*Unfairness Spoiler*
(The best example of the change in formula is the CH7 boss fight. After beating the boss, you will be treated to instant death unless you know to hold the block button down after killing him. No warning whatsoever. Why should you hold block after winning the fight!?

Your “best example” of unfairness is the most tired of all arguments against NGII. First, the camera pulls out and something is clearly about to happen. The fight is not over until you see your score tallying up, and you should always be wary. Are enemies not allowed to attempt a last-ditch effort to kill you?

Second, has this never happened in any other game before? Although I don’t think this qualifies exactly, there are many examples of trial-and-error for survival. Some games require certain tricks for bosses that would be impossible or nigh impossible to do without prescience. There is a famous sweeping pattern during a certain boss in Battle Garegga which will kill you, without warning. The only way to survive is through prior knowledge, or an immense amount of luck.

Third, even if you thought this was a game-breaking device, it only happens once. On subsequent plays, this situation obviously disappears, hardly making this the best example of unfairness.

Fourth, do you want to beat a game on your first time through without death? Oh I see, maybe you want to have the chance, however slim, to beat a game without dying. I would like to meet a single person who either: A) 1CCed Ketsui on their first-ever credit, or B) thinks Ketsui is unfair because it is unbeatable on their first credit.

Yes, there is a difference between difficult and impossible. But that part in NGII is not impossible; I survived the first time without prior knowledge. I had sense enough to block when a big freaking monster that had been literally exploding itself for several minutes fell to the ground in apparent death.

In closing, I would like to say that I found both games incredibly difficult and extremely frustrating at times. However, I actually found myself wanting to put my foot through my TV a lot more during NGI than NGII. In either case, I don't believe it was through any fault of the game.

I would go on for another page about all the things that have improved in the sequel, but I’m afraid I’ve gone on long enough.

NGI is near-perfect; NGII is even closer.

[mees]

As compared to Ninja Gaiden having only maybe 4 enemies attacking you or even on screen with you generally, Ninja Gaiden II has no practical limits, even to the point of frequent slowdown on the higher difficulties. One of the worst examples of this is later in the game when you are attacked by 3 of the 1st chapter bosses, and 6 ninjas at the same time (similar situations happen often on higher difficulties).

Judging a game on its higher difficulties is wrong. Nobody complains that Mars Matrix is too hard on level 8 difficulty, because it necessarily changes the balance of the game. The default settings are where the game has been optimized; all others are irrelevant. You want more challenge? Play a different game.

He wasn't complaining that the game was "too hard" here, or about some "balance change". He's saying on the higher difficulty there is slowdown, which obviously sucks. Not exactly sure what he's saying with the example, however.

And "judging a game on its higher difficulties" is not wrong. It's no more arbitrary than judging it on the "normal" difficulty. "The game has been optimized?" For who? Normal players? If someone finds the hardest difficulty unsatisfying, and every other difficulty only more unsatisfying, he's quite justified in judging it on the hardest difficulty.

[losganados]

If the game were indeed unfair, I would never be able to improve my skills and cope with ten incendiary-throwing ninjas. In an unfair game, there would be no benefit to practice, and a beginner would fare just as well as a veteran.

That would not make a game unfair, that would just mean that it lacks depth and is a bad game.
I haven't played NG2 yet. I was thinking of buying the 360 or PS3 version but I don't know how enjoyable the extras will be in the Sigma version and I disliked the PS3 controller for NGS (I preferred the Xbox 1 controller). But now I have a DS3 and it feels better than the crappy sixaxis (more weight; vibration).