Cult Citizen

[icycalm]

So I had found a Reddit thread on sticks for Star Citizen, and the guys were saying that unless you have DUAL sticks, you'll be getting smashed in dogfighting against players. Obviously single stick is better than none, but for a fair fight you're gonna need two sticks.

I can't find the Reddit thread anymore, I thought I'd bookmarked it, but apparently not. I'll post it when I find it, but this is obviously true to anyone who's ever played a space sim. The sticks are as necessary as an arcade stick for a shooting or fighting game.

So, so far I only know of ysignal among us who has a stick. He has a single stick and HOTAS, not dual sticks. So basically whenever it's a risky situation and/or we're flying an expensive ship, ysignal should be flying it. Of course everyone's free to risk their own shit, but I am talking about our org's expensive stuff.

Post all discussion on sticks here, and let us know what you have or if you buy something. I will see if I can give people ranks in the game so that the "pilots" will be people with dual sticks, and maybe "junior pilots" with one stick, or something along these lines.

I am currently researching different types of sticks.

Without sticks 50% of the game is basically off-limits in the long-term.

Here's a video to kick this off:

Why Use Dual Joysticks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bGbmKiDb2k

[icycalm]

Also post pics of your setup, e.g. desk and sticks etc., in this thread in order to rank up to pilot.

[ysignal]

My flight stick is the Logitech X52 Professional H.O.T.A.S.:

https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/space/x52-pro-space-flight-simulator-controller.945-000022.html

I don't want to take a photo of my setup right now because I have newspapers all over the windows behind my monitor. I'm having proper blinds installed tomorrow, so I should be able to take a picture after that. I also just ordered the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS Space Sim Duo (the same stick used by the guy in the video icy linked above):

https://www.thrustmaster.com/en-gb/products/t-16000m-fcs-space-sim-duo/

I don't have a proper mounting solution yet, so for the time being I'll use heavy-duty double-sided tape to stick the stick and throttle to my desk.

[ChevRage]

I bought this set of HOTAS + pedals a while ago:

https://www.thrustmaster.com/en-gb/prod ... ight-pack/

Still haven't taken it out of its box yet, I'll probably wait until after the move before I get it set up and take pictures of it.

It seems pretty easy to get dual sticks from here, all I'll need to do is buy an individual stick of the same brand to complement the one in the set. The stick is ambidextrous, so you can set it up for whichever hand you want to use it for.

[ysignal]

Here's my current setup:



And a close-up:



I'll figure out a better way to mount them later.

[icycalm]

That looks great. I’d get a bigger desk if I were you. Both longer and wider but primarily wider.

[ExiledOne]

I've been looking into this recently. There's a lot of info on Reddit and YouTube. This thread is concise and seems similar to what I've heard from the guys on YouTube as well:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments ... ame=iossmf

Consider a pair of VKB Gladiator NXT Evo sticks, one Space Combat Edition and one Omni-Throttle, which is basically the Space Combat grip mounted at a 45 degree angle instead of straight up.

The Gladiator is, no contest, the best stick you will find under $300, let alone under $200, and absolutely beats the pants off the X56, and anything else by Logitech or Thrustmaster. The Omni-Throttle version for your left hand will serve you in two ways: as a second full stick for space sims, since you mention Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen, both games that greatly benefit from a dual stick (HOSAS) setup over a traditional HOSAS since you have six degrees of control of your ship. And for traditional atmospheric flight sims, the Omni-Throttle can function as a regular throttle by locking the X axis, removing the Y axis spring and tightening the dampers on the Y axis so it stays put when you let go and doesn't return to center.

Playing Elite Dangerous in VR with HOSAS controls in your hands is an absolutely awe-inducing experience.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/l7gcql/considering_your_first_hotas_more_comprehensive/

You'll never regret spending a lot of money on HOTAS equipment. But you may regret buying a cheap one.

Cancel your X56 order please!

If you want to dip a toe in, you could go for a VKB Gladiator EVO and a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle.

Or you could go for two VKB Gladiator EVOs, one right hand and one left hand and buy the VKB angled adapter (aka omnithrottle adapter) for the left hand, which would put your left hand stick's grip more in a motorcycle grip type position.

For flight sims you can then lock off the x axis and fully tighten down the clutch on the y axis and you'll have what is essentially a throttle (it'll even look a bit like an F-16 throttle, not that you'd be interested in anything so vulgar as a fast jet! :D).

For space-sims you would have the x axis unlocked and the clutches on both axes set to taste and use it as strafe left/right, strafe forwards/back and strafe up/down on the x, y and twist axis respectively (or you could pick whatever analogue axis style input you wanted to bind those left stick axes to, what I suggested is probably just the most common).

The Gladiator EVO is mid-market in VKB's line-up but it outclasses anything from any of the mainstream manufacturers like Logitech/Saitek or Thrustmaster (including that overrated abomination the Warthog stick).

If you wanted to spend more, then VKB, Virpil and Win Wing are your go to manufacturers.

Briefly, in addition to the aforementioned Gladiator EVO, VKB make the Gunfighter base to which you can mount one of their grips; I'd recommend either the SCG Premium or MCG Ultimate. Given your predilection for warbirds you might be tempted to go for the KG-12 grip but, whilst it's a lovely grip it would be a bit limiting in space-sims.

The Gunfighter base has clutches and you can fit an omnithrottle adapter to it so you could go right and left handed similarly to the Gladiator Evo but the only grip that's offered in left hand is the SCG.

Virpil offer their T-50 CM2 base and their WarBRD base (the latter of which is a bit cheaper and offers slightly less configurability and is more intended for desktop use, the T-50 CM2 being only usable with mounts). Virpil also offers plenty of grips to mount on a Virpil base. Current favourite seems to be the Constellation Alpha. You can also do the right hand left hand thing but Virpil doesn't offer the ability to lock out any of the axes and doesn't have clutches.

Virpil offer the current best general purpose throttle in the CM3. VKB currently don't have a throttle offering (the long awaited VKB TECS is...well, long awaited, it'll turn up but who knows when!).

This post is getting over-lengthy so I'll let you do a bit of research on Win Wing. ;)

One final thing, if you're going to be flying warbirds you probably want pedals.

Products to consider in ascending order of desirability (in my humble opinion):

MFG Crosswinds

Slaw Vipers

Either would be great.

(if you do a bit of research, you'll note I didn't mention Virpil's pedals, honestly, I've had a few Virpil products and they've been uniformly bloody great, the Virpil Ace pedals were the only Virpil product that I was actively disappointed with)

In response to a VKB vs Virpil question:

For the throttle yes but only because VKB's TECS is yet to be released (don't ask! :D)

For a stick not really. If you're spending serious money the VKB Gunfighter is in my opinion the best prosumer stick base you can get (and I've had a Virpil T-50 base and the VKB Gunfighter and I kept the VKB Gunfighter) and the MCG Ultimate is gorgeous as a grip. If you go Virpil you wouldn't be disappointed I'd think but I think you'd be even more not disappointed if you went with the VKB Gunfighter.

For pedals I would recommend against Virpil and for MFG Crosswinds (or Slaw if you really want to get spendy). If you could bear not having toe brakes on your pedals and needed to keep the costs down I'd happily recommend VKB T-Rudder pedals but since you like your warbirds you probably do want toe brakes. ;)

The thread kalnaren linked is very good and he updated it recently. He claims to have flying experience in real-life also.

As far as VKB, it seems the Gladiator NXT are some of the best sticks around at that price point. VKB recently discontinued the original NXT Gladiators for the Evo line a couple months ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments ... xt_vs_evo/

Just upgraded from the NXT to the EVO. Basically its largely the same with the addition of the dry clutches allowing for added weight on the axis movement(beyond changing springs). There are other improvements according to VKB, but that is the most notable and a nice addition. That said, the NXT was perfectly adequate with its feel already, but having more customization is nice. NXT's are no longer even available from VKB anyway as the Evo line is basically a replacement.

As for Premium vs. Standard: Premium is largely worth the upgrade. You get way more switches and hats, meaning a lot more mapping in games. Some won't need it, others absolutely do. Not just that, you can always revert Premium to standard as it comes with all the tools and accessories to downgrade if you wish, but likely you won't and will just keep Premium add-ons installed as-is. But if you want to save a bit and just go standard, you can always upgrade later I believe with a separate kit, but know shipping from China will demand that hefty cost all over to do so...just get Premium.

Beyond that would be their Gunfighter series.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments ... r_iii_scg/

Key advantages of GF3:

Adjustable cams

More adjustable springs

Ultimate grip (if you don’t mind non-mirrored grips). The SCG is good but the U blows it away

Extensions

Ability to centre mount + offset grip angle (MCG/F14 grips)

Key advantages of Evo:

Cost

X-axis lockout

Perhaps Double Y-axis clutch makes for better throttle damper than GF (? Not sure)

Direct attachment of NXT Extension Modules

Extra buttons, encoder, switch and axis on base

There's a standard and premium edition for both and some other options for the Gunfighter like taller extensions (which might work well with single stick piloting I guess). With the Gunfighter MK III, the Ultimate is considered to be the best grip but it only has a right-hand version so you'd have to pair it with another grip (and there's a separate Omni Throttle Adapter). And the only left-handed grip is the Space Combat Edition (Kosmosima) grip.

Both are very customizable. There's multiple configurations for the Omni Throttle as shown in the description here:

VKB Gladiator NXT EVO - Different Configurations
https://youtu.be/K3kITA3MFTY

The Omni Throttle seems like a good compromise between dual-sticks and an actual throttle since it's really just a stick with an angled grip that you can turn into a throttle. I haven't tried any of this but I am thinking I'd like the second configuration he mentions for space-sims better than the first. It seems that like would feel most like a throttle and still give you side-to-side movement. And you can mix and match them so upgrading one stick from a Evo to Gunfighter later won't be a problem. Everyone seems to agree that the EVO will fit most people's needs and the others are just icing on the cake.

And lastly, here's the link to their official page:

https://vkb-sim.pro

[ChevRage]

I'm partially set up now. I think I need to tweak a few things to get comfortable, though above all I'll need to get that second stick.





The stand I'm using is called the Next Level Racing Flight Stand, though there's a 2.0 version available now that looks a lot better. There's a whole bunch of modular attachments you can buy for this one that turns it into a whole simpit, complete with chair and motion platform. I'm not sure if and when I'll ever end up getting those though. If I had the money to burn on it I'll probably try to find something much better looking.

[icycalm]

Wow that is something.

I guess the keyboard sits on your lap?

[ChevRage]

Yeah I just have the wireless one on my lap. It is kinda awkward, I really need the fold-in keyboard tray like in that awesome simpit video.

[ChevRage]

Thrustmaster has suggested button mappings for the twin-stick setup:

[ysignal]

An update on the T.16000M: I didn't post here when I received them, but I've been using two of these for a long time now. They generally work well, but a while ago I started experiencing a leftward drift on the twist axis of the right joystick (yaw control in my setup). I got by using some workarounds until now, but it seems that to fix it properly you actually need to open the joystick up. Here's a guide:

Easy fix for T16000M stick/twist rudder - Complete tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVzhEgHS4bA



This fixed the problem for me. Judging by the comments section, it seems to be a common issue with this stick, so something to keep in mind before purchasing.