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On Why Scoring Sucks And Those Who Defend It Are Aspies

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Unread postby icycalm » 11 May 2013 15:06

http://www.dinofarmgames.com/how-scores ... -887240362

Bo Banducci wrote:"The crux of Herp Derp's argument is that, if an "experience" is rewarding in and of itself, there is no need for intrinsic motivators of any kind."

That is not what Herp is saying.

He is saying that there are more exciting goals to pursue than increasing a number at the bottom of your screen. For instance: which is funner, killing a boss because you know its going to make your score go up, or beating a boss because you want the magic, glowing sword he is wielding? The latter, obviously. There is ALWAYS something much, much cooler than a score increase that you could be rewarding your player with. All those intrinsic motivators you listed, like cutscenes and endings, are examples.

Herp's argument comes from Alex Kierkegaard's essay "Why Scoring Sucks and Those Who Defend it Are Aspies" (lol): http://imgur.com/a/q6BUr#0

To be fair, the score becomes meaningful when you compare it to someone else's. It's fun to beat someone else's score. But here we have the same problem: it's even FUNNER to have a shinier sword, or a bigger gun, etc etc than someone else. So even when you're looking at it competitively, there's just no reason to use score for your metric.

I'll admit that score does a good job of accounting for minute differences between performances. You can beat the other guy by 1 point because you did just slightly better. But it's still going to be more enjoyable for both players if you can represent that slightly better performance in a more interesting way. Fighting games do a good job of this because they allow for that razor-thin margin of victory, but you get to KO the other dude instead of just get a slightly higher number. And that's the point: fighting games could play exactly the same if each hit just incremented a score, but its COOLER to see people fighting and killing each other!

I agree with Keith that scoring in video games sucks, and he has found some ways to improve it. But scoring is inherently flawed because 1) it is boring compared to many other rewards and 2) (and for this point you should read the essay) it only has meaning OUTSIDE the game, when it is compared with other people's score. So by focusing on your score you are drawn out of the game world.

Icycalm, if you read this, I hope I have done you justice. Praise be your name.


Yep, that's a good summary of some of the points I am making. Now you need to combine it with an understanding of the fact that versus games are inherently inferior, but I haven't published that essay (and the relevant reviews) yet.
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Unread postby icycalm » 05 Dec 2013 14:57

https://twitter.com/shubn/status/405418734879129600

shubn wrote:The face of #speedrunning. #aspie #aspies #aspieism #autism pic.twitter.com/vyW0i71Amj

BaBWMP4CQAAjqEJ.jpg_large.jpeg


Sparkster wrote:@shubn It's like Scoring, but maybe even worse?


shubn wrote:@UraSparkster Probably slightly worse... but then plague is probably slightly worse than cholera.


Yeah, I agree there. At least scoring doesn't make the game look like a Benny Hill skit. I can watch the occasional superplay, but I still haven't managed to bear more than a few seconds of a speedrun.
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Unread postby zinger » 28 Jan 2014 22:40

http://www.icetfinallevel.com/episodes/2013/10/19/episode-1-bob-odenkirk-and-the-birthday-boys

Ice-T wrote:[...] That's when it gets nerdy to me. When you know, there's certain points in the game when it gets nerdy, like okay, you're playin Xbox and you're playin Call of Duty and you're worried about your kill/death ratio... You know "oh my, my kill/death ratio". [...] Yeah you know, I mean yo... It's bad enough tryin to get a girl if she knows you're a gamer, if you walk up to a girl and say "yo baby, huh, my kill/death ratio is..." [laughs] You might as well put on some Crocs. [...]
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Unread postby icycalm » 19 Aug 2014 15:41

http://www.learntocounter.com/forums/in ... pic=7327.0

Surth wrote:
468372.jpeg
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What does it say about the mentality that Blizzard sees in its players that you can "optimally" play the game without sound or textures? ESPOOOOOOOORTS.
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Unread postby icycalm » 30 Dec 2014 04:58

'Smurfing' on the ladder... very un sporting!
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/smur ... ing.66861/

This thread is full of posts by me. A highlight:

I wrote:The funny thing -- which is at the same time more than a little tragic -- is that both your and cdrkf's actions are motivated by the same basic feeling: your obsession with your rank. You smurf to avoid dropping down in rank, and cdrkf resents your smurfing because it causes him to drop down in rank. But neither of you can see this, and empathize with one another. Empathy and psychology have no place on the ladder, and especially its highest part: all that matters is rank.


The entire thread is worth reading. (At least until the last current post, #58. It may well turn to shit later on.)
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Unread postby icycalm » 31 Dec 2014 22:42

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/smur ... st-1050167

I wrote:In all honesty, I don't think that the smurfers are doing this on purpose, to hurt anybody. First off, it is obvious that they are obsessed about rank far more than anyone else is, and that's precisely why they are smurfing -- in order to safeguard their rank. But more importantly, and more generally, I believe that the top "competitive" gamers, in all games, tend to include a disproportionate number of people who suffer from a neurodevelopmental disorder which is characterized by "impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior". In short, it makes people obsessed with numbers and it makes them unable to empathize with the feelings of others. I am not going to name this disorder, because people will accuse me of ad hominem. I am not trying to insult anybody: this is simply what I have personally deduced after 20+ years in the videogame community. Many others agree with me, and one day there will even be studies about this. But at any rate it neatly explains the behavior of the smurfers, and also their incapacity to understand why the other players object to this behavior.

In view of the above, I believe it may be a good idea to be lenient towards them, since they simply can't help doing what they are doing. If their behavior is indeed a result of this disorder, banning smurfing is going to hurt them far more than it will help those who are hurt by smurfing.

And on that note, I will stop posting in this thread. I am even starting to regret some of my aggressive comments here, considering what the real problem at the bottom of all this might be.
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Unread postby icycalm » 02 Jan 2015 18:33

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/smur ... st-1050795

I wrote:Since we are off-topic already I'll say that, if I don't get banned (despite me asking to lol, which I've never done before!) this will be the first large online community that hasn't expelled me. Which ties neatly into my theory that the kind of people who like the most complex games are the best kinds of people. Still not good enough for my tastes! But the best nonetheless.
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Unread postby icycalm » 11 May 2015 23:04

Speedrunning in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b56N17d4WnM

RWhiteGoose wrote:Everyone who speedruns is degenerate and getting world records is the only way they can feel good about themselves.


RWhiteGoose wrote:The only reason we speedrun is because we are too pathetic to accomplish anything else decent in life.


http://www.learntocounter.com/forums/in ... 3#msg81633

ray wrote:40 hours? Sleep deprivation really does bring out the honesty.


Also,

Nietzsche wrote:Cynicism is the only form in which base souls approach honesty.
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Unread postby icycalm » 09 Jun 2015 22:08

I like the way he puts it in the bolded part. Lots of people copy my word choices and expressions, but very few are able to choose from them appropriately for each situation, never mind reshape them and remix them well, like this guy can.

https://archive.moe/v/thread/297579060/#297582229

Anonymous wrote:>>297581784
>are you complaining about playing an action game more than once?

Yes, is there a problem anon? I don't have the time to play a fucking videogame over and over like an autist. There are many other videogames I could be playing and things I could be doing.

Want me to learn your fucking shit? Then make the game hard enough so that in order to beat it I'd have to completely master the combat. Simple. Otherwise, fuck your stupid dripfeeding faggotry for aspie imbeciles.


https://archive.moe/v/thread/297579060/#297582480

Anonymous wrote:>>297582229

>Yes, is there a problem anon? I don't have the time to play a fucking videogame over and over like an autist.

Oh, hi Icycalm, how are you doing today?


https://archive.moe/v/thread/297579060/#297583848

Anonymous wrote:>>297583525
Playing the same game over and over again means you are hardcore at playing that game. But not when it comes to all vidya.

In fact by your definition, since you only play ONE game out of the myriad, you are a casual videogame player, but a hardcore DMC3 player.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't /dmc3g/, so you are a casual, faggot.
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Unread postby Helios » 12 Feb 2017 23:54

I think the reason speedrunning produces so much more sickness than any other scoring method is because the score is measured by how much it erases the original game. With this scoring system the less of the game that is actually played the better. The community finds all sorts of bugs, glitches, and tricks that skip or shorten the game. Not only does the community actively work to find these methods of erasing the game but they also measure a game's worth by its potential to be annihilated.

If you want to get on the scoreboard why would you play something like Contra where the difference in time between one no-death run and another is only a few seconds? It would be very difficult to defeat an old record since there is going to be very little room for improvement. Plus being just a few seconds faster doesn't look very impressive on the charts anyway.

If you play Ocarina of Time you could be hours ahead of other players if you discover a new glitch! Which is exactly what happened to that particular game, more and more glitches were found which kept the scoreboard competitive. With each glitch added more of Link's adventure got erased until he was just teleporting through walls to skip the whole thing. I'm told he doesn't even fight Gannon anymore, he just does a glitch that makes the credits roll. That counts as winning. I think Ocarina is the most popular game in speedrunning, by a very large margin too. In general it seems the more of the game that gets erased in the speedrun the more popular it is, not only for the player but for the spectators.

I can't find the video but I remember there was one with an arch-autist theorizing that in Paper Mario it might be possible to trick the game into going into the credits right at the title screen, so that he could 'beat' the game without even having to play it. So this would be the final conclusion of speedrunning: erasing the game entirety and leaving only the scoreboard.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Feb 2017 01:01

lol

I don't know if I should make an article out of that or edit one of the essays to quote it in it.
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Unread postby icycalm » 13 Feb 2017 07:18

After some thought, I decided that the most effective way to handle this, in order to reach the maximum number of people, is to add a note at the end of the essay with your post. This will happen first in the online version of the essay that I plan to post on the frontpage soon, and then when the book gets a second edition, it will get the note too.

The note will basically read:

Some more thoughts on speedrunning from Insomnia member Helios, posted in the forum on Feb 12, 2017:

"I think the reason speedrunning produces so much more sickness than any other scoring method", etc. etc.


Is that okay with you?
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Unread postby Helios » 14 Feb 2017 00:46

Yes, it's ok. Could you please add my first and last name too? Being part of one of your books is a huge level of happiness!!
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Unread postby icycalm » 14 Feb 2017 21:18

Yeah, that's even better, though in that case I might omit the username. We'll see how it looks on the page when it goes online.
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Unread postby icycalm » 04 May 2017 14:26

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1368679

mindsale wrote:Naughty Dog, Lose the Speedrunning

When BluePoint (wonderfully) remastered the Uncharted trilogy, I found it curious that they had added a series of speedrunning accomplishments.

When Uncharted 4 launched with a silver speedrunning trophy as well, I began to worry that it's becoming part of Naughty Dog's design philosophy, at least toward achievements.

I really hope they don't include any more, specifically in The Last of Us Part II.

ND creates the most atmospheric, well-written, well-acted software available. To encourage players to skip through emptionally-charged scenes and context-sensitive environments robs a player of that immersion and world building, and lessens a title's impact every playthrough thereafter having already experienced content with nothing but a time trial on their mind.

This is the last company that should be trying to have players appreciate less of their content.

I appreciate that speedruns are a Meta-construct where something other than narrative tension motivates a player and inspires fear and anxiety, and I understand that speedrunning communities are flourishing with all the content streaming services that currently abound. Still I beg of you Naughty Dog, ditch the style altogether. Leave speedrunning emphasis to the sequel to The Order and duller, less-inspaired software. You're better than this.

Is this how you feel about speedrunning? Can you think of games that implemented speedrunning achievements well? Did you like the recent Naughty Dog speedrunning achievements? Should they back away from the mechanic, or will it persist into The Last of Us Part II having no trophies other than speedrunning-related ones?
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Unread postby icycalm » 18 May 2017 14:51

HAHAHAHAHA IKEDA HAS "NO INTEREST IN SCORING" TROLOLOL

Tsuneki Ikeda wrote:To be honest, I’m actually more of a survival player myself. That’s why we made the chaining more lenient compared with Donpachi, so that players like me with no interest in scoring could be able to enjoy it too.


http://shmuplations.com/dodonpachi2/

http://victorygamecenter.com/forum/view ... 1431#p1095
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Unread postby icycalm » 22 May 2017 05:31

tXLknaW.png
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Found this in a NeoGAF thread about TW101, so I assume he posted it in reference to that game. If anyone can provide some context, let me know. I can't imagine he is dissing scoring when his games are so heavily into it. Then again, given Ikeda's astonishing comment above, I guess anything's possible.
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Unread postby icycalm » 03 Jun 2017 01:28

From Discord:

I wrote:I just came up with an argument against calling games sports I've never heard before
There is of course the dictionary argument I have been touting forever, but the new one is more convicing
Basically, doctors often tell people to take up a sport, because it's good for their health
"So, like Counter-Strike?"
That's how you can see that sports and "eSports" are two entirely different things and thus should not share a word between them
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Unread postby icycalm » 02 Oct 2017 05:08

Everything you should NOT do when playing shooting games, or any type of games really:

GD: How to practice shooting games
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 53#p560153

Their advice sounds exactly like what Recap means by "dissecting [the game] like a corpse" in this post:

http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/view ... 619#p23619

Recap wrote:As a final note, I'd love that you indeed fully banned the continue feature for once, it'll serve for no non-sense ranking purposes (practicing would mean playing the game for everybody, not dissecting it like a corpse)
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Unread postby Discord BOT » 14 Mar 2019 23:08

CULT|Saf
https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/new- ... ew-meters/

The Hard Times wrote:New Edition of Fighting Game Adds 4 New Characters, 7 New Meters
A new entry in the BlazBlue fighting game series will introduce four new characters and a record-breaking seven new meters to the game.
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(satire)

CULT|icycalm
It does highlight the problem I have talked about somewhere of trying to cram more complexity into a genre than it can contain
I think I talked about this in the theory thread on my scoring essay
What happens in such cases is that the additional complexity over the genre's limit appears as aesthetic absurdity
Which of course is yet more proof that the graphics/"gameplay" dichotomy is infantile bullshit
Originally posted in the Insomnia Discord.

Insomnia Discord bot powered by proprietary next gen next level neural networked quantum learning self aware AI developed by Cult Games.
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